Racism: the Dying Regime

[Ahldagor]

welcome to the effects of specificity. gotta love those post-Socratic thinkers

[Ahldagor]

generations to overcome is the key there ^^^
not going away over night, and at the same time we have to continue the work

[Malice_Mizer]

Black representatives sitting in Congress were beaten by police officers for marching for their rights and to end the century of Jim Crow that emerged after slavery.

I'm confused how you always turn this into an exclusively "slavery" conversation. That's part of the root, but it's not the whole story. Not even close. If white America had atoned for their sins after slavery, then we'd be on a totally different course of history today. But they didn't. They were proud and in slavery's stead erected a social and economic order that was a different form of slavery that existed as a matter of law until 50 years ago.

When there are still people that, as young adults, experienced the horrors of the Civil Rights era and the face that white America showed them at the time, you cannot claim that there's just this "grudge" that they have that they need to get over. That's plainly wrong, and a self-serving attitude to take.

I'm not saying that you personally have done anything "bad" to a "black person". That's not for me to say, because I know very little about you. But we're still the effective inheritors of a society and government that in the recent past, extending into the distant past, committed horrible crimes against humanity, for which we've had to pay very, very little. We threw them a bill or two in the 60's, some token references, some lip-service, and have largely let the issue fester and remain neglected.

Statistically speaking, institutional racism is still alive and well in America. There is absolutely no denying that. Individual discretion permeates every level of authority, and it's often influenced by unseen bias and socialized fear and/or malice towards certain groups of people.

[Kagatob]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not saying that you personally have done anything "bad" to a "black person". That's not for me to say, because I know very little about you. But we're still the effective inheritors of a society and government that in the recent past, extending into the distant past, committed horrible crimes against humanity, for which we've had to pay very, very little. We threw them a bill or two in the 60's, some token references, some lip-service, and have largely let the issue fester and remain neglected.

The idea of having to pay for the actions of previous generations is as outdated as the extinct institutions you are so obsessed over. You just don't seem to understand that holding onto both grudges and guilt moves people and society as a whole backwards on all of these issues.

[Vineyea]

Originally Posted by Kagatob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The idea of having to pay for the actions of previous generations is as outdated as the extinct institutions you are so obsessed over. You just don't seem to understand that holding onto both grudges and guilt moves people and society as a whole backwards on all of these issues.

I had to lol at this.

[Malice_Mizer]

Originally Posted by Kagatob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The idea of having to pay for the actions of previous generations is as outdated as the extinct institutions you are so obsessed over. You just don't seem to understand that holding onto both grudges and guilt moves people and society as a whole backwards on all of these issues.

Just like future generations won't have to pay for what we're currently doing to the planet.

Just like we're not currently paying for the bills of previous generations, and generations ahead of us the same.

Just like we don't pay for every war we've ever fought or struggle we've endured in the form of memorial and cultural memory. I never experienced the Great Depression-- but do you think that its vestiges and legacy and lasting impression isn't there for everyone to see?

What about the Germans, who built the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe in 1999? Don't you think it'd be easier for them to just ignore what happened during WW2 during previous generations and just move on already? Aren't they just making too big of a deal of the Holocaust, beating a dead horse, and everyone just needs to get over it because it's not like the Holocaust affected every aspect of our international order or cultural understanding of the world, history, and the depth of humanity, right?

Which "institutions" are "extinct" exactly? The police forces that empirically target and harass citizens of color at disproportionate rates for drug crimes, despite every bit of evidence leading to the idea that illegal drug transactions are a static occurrence across class and racial lines?

"Blacks continue to be faced with punishing unfairness and inequalities. Soaring rates of unemployment, discriminatory drug laws, disproportionate prison sentences, unequal access to health care and healthy food, unfair stop-and-frisk policies and “accidental” shootings of unarmed black men by the police — these and more are treated with indifference or contempt. We’re told to stop complaining, to get over it. No one cares. But that’s just the point of living in the United States. Somebody is supposed to care. Our elected officials, beginning with the president, are charged with the responsibility of listening to the needs, the grievances, the voices of the people — including people of color."

"Memory is life." Are you just painfully naive or trolling my ass?

[Kagatob]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just like future generations won't have to pay for what we're currently doing to the planet.

Just like we're not currently paying for the bills of previous generations, and generations ahead of us the same.

Now you're linking environmentalism to racism? You broke your stretch armstrong when you were a kid didn't you?

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just like we don't pay for every war we've ever fought or struggle we've endured in the form of memorial and cultural memory. I never experienced the Great Depression-- but do you think that its vestiges and legacy and lasting impression isn't there for everyone to see?

Outside of lines of text in a history book, it's not. Unless you are getting a masters in economics, after high school you won't hear a single word about the depression outside some barely founded comparisons to it when the GoP president tosses us into a recession. The same level of comparisons that compare 9/11 or the Boston Marathon Bombing to Pearl Harbor. Or you know, comparing environmental damage to racism.

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about the Germans, who built the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe in 1999? Don't you think it'd be easier for them to just ignore what happened during WW2 during previous generations and just move on already? Aren't they just making too big of a deal of the Holocaust, beating a dead horse, and everyone just needs to get over it because it's not like the Holocaust affected every aspect of our international order or cultural understanding of the world, history, and the depth of humanity, right?

A memorial was built. It's a memorial not a payment, let's try to stay on topic here. Germany paid their dues after WWII thanks to the Soviet Union. Or did you forget that they had their own 45 years of suffering via the Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain?
Does it excuse the Holocaust? Of course not, but both sides realize that making each other suffer further would be a barbaric exercise with no positive end outcomes. Then again we're talking about Europe and not Amurika so the things they do out there actually make sense some of the time.

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which "institutions" are "extinct" exactly? The police forces that empirically target and harass citizens of color at disproportionate rates for drug crimes, despite every bit of evidence leading to the idea that illegal drug transactions are a static occurrence across class and racial lines?

Cops are pigs, tell me something I don't know. You however make the jump from blaming all white people for the actions of a select corrupt group. (The same way you blame the citizens for bullshit laws the government that I didn't vote for put into place).
It's interesting you concentrate on the drug war (which is close to seeing it's last days) and not any other forms of crime which statistically the small population of black people perform a gigantic percentage of those crimes, particularly against other black people. But we'll just ignore these facts because they detract from blaming whitey.

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Blacks continue to be faced with punishing unfairness and inequalities. Soaring rates of unemployment, discriminatory drug laws, disproportionate prison sentences, unequal access to health care and healthy food, unfair stop-and-frisk policies and “accidental” shootings of unarmed black men by the police — these and more are treated with indifference or contempt. We’re told to stop complaining, to get over it. No one cares. But that’s just the point of living in the United States. Somebody is supposed to care. Our elected officials, beginning with the president, are charged with the responsibility of listening to the needs, the grievances, the voices of the people — including people of color."

You're kind of going in 6 different directions here, 3 of which I've addressed above and the others which aren't even on topic.
"disproportionate prison sentences, unequal access to health care and healthy food" are classist issues not racist issues. Stop trying to blame everything on race, you are the racist one in that discussion every time.

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Memory is life." Are you just painfully naive or trolling my ass?

Learn the difference between a memorial and a grudge and we can have a discussion without hate mongering. All you know how to do is blame blame blame. Why not come up with an actual solution for once if your vision is so much clearer than everyone else's?

[Malice_Mizer]

Originally Posted by Kagatob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now you're linking environmentalism to racism? You broke your stretch armstrong when you were a kid didn't you?


... Or you know, comparing environmental damage to racism.

I want to bring to your attention that social issues intersect. The intersectionality of issues demonstrates critical thought by recognizing patterns of behavior and societal themes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_racism

Kind of like the way all of the trash from Manhattan gets dumped in front of Bronx and Queens neighborhoods for them to deal with. Or the way run-off from factories gets disproportionately dumped into poor, black areas because they have the least political representation and thus the smallest chance of raising a stink about major environmental hazards to their health. These are facts. Institutional racism and environmental concerns intersect, just as capitalism and environmentalism intersect. Similarly, class and race intersect. Class and race are intimately tied to each other, and in America, race more often than not determines the rigidity of your class and opportunities of social mobility. Again, it's not a "stretch" to say that environmentalism and feminism and racism and anti-capitalism all come together in certain ways. If they came from society and civilization and the way humans organize themselves, they have more in common than you give them credit for and have a common root.

All rage-induced flames between us aside, the world is a complex place. I don't consider anything in a vacuum, and try my hardest to check myself and be receptive to criticism if I do. I am 100% able to admit when I am wrong and will gladly amend my beliefs when I am because I place a greater value on truth and justice than being right in an argument when all cards are on the table. Do you think I find it fun and enjoyable to recognize that my history and rolemodels as a white man in America are totally fucked and riddled with horrific displays of callousness and crimes against humanity? Do you think I find it fun to disassociate myself with the ancestors on my father's side who came here in the 1600's and owned slaves? I do not find pleasure in breaking down things I should normally be proud of, but I am not proud. Other white people can be proud of their history-- I'm obviously fine with that. But we need to come together and recognize that we also have a fucked up side of history in this country that, by and large, has remained an open wound for many people. The way to pass from grief to acceptance is not to forget or pretend nothing happened. You may not have pain from your historical reference points in this country, but many people in this country do, and we need to validate that as a truth, as well.

I am not a "blame whitey" kind of guy, honestly. I often get angry at the excessive number of white people who deny the existence of racism or downplay the very real scars of our collective history. That's about it, though. I think white people can be allies, obviously. I don't think every white person in America needs to donate their paycheck to a black family for reparations or bow and grovel or something.

How do you differentiate between "grudge" and "memory"..? Isn't that kind of subjective, based entirely on which side you're viewing it from?

I'm very interest to know how you personally feel about:

1. American history as a whole, and
2. White peoples' historical place concerning blacks, Latinos, Asians, and Native Americans

[Vineyea]

There does seem to be a common thread in America of not taking responsibility for what an agent or agency is clearly liable for. Think about abortion. Over the course of human history there has been made time and again this stunning discovery that sex leads to babies. Had sex? Baby on the way? There would seem to me to be an unravelling of a very obvious and forseable future that if not interfered with would lead to the birth of a new human being. When you do something about it and abort the baby you're stepping in and relieveing a measure of responsibility.

Similarly, with the understanding of how national policy affects markets and people. I guess the big debate now is over immigrant labour-- Our official stance governs the possibilities and probabilities of certain kinds of life and communities within the influence of that stance. You have to wonder to what extent we are responsible for the forseable future at the national level, nevermind global atm.

[Malice_Mizer]

Flounder.