Ignoring the Average Joe: Why most raid plans do nothing for those who need it most

[Rheaume]

Well reasoned post.
The answer (as history shows) is to find another game. It is precisely these 'flaws/features' that other subsequent MMOs 'solved/changed' and why people left EQ for greener pastures.

A part of me understands the hardcores. They can and desire to devote more time to EQ than those who choose (it is a choice) not to do so. Original EQ raiding is more suited to their play style than to the casuals.

[SirAlvarex]

I still like the idea of doing a "Draft" at the beginning of the month to decide which guild can kill which raid target...that way guilds can concentrate on killing when their numbers are strongest and don't have to rely on 2am batphones or leaving their kid in the bathtub on a pop because pixels zomg. Oh yeah and the 40 hours of sitting at a spawn point hitting "track....track....track....track.../suicide".

Then the other half of the month the other guilds can do their FFA train fest.

This way those who play the game to try and get character advancement and to kill mobs they never got to on live get a chance. And the ones who like to track for ungodly hours can do that the other half of the month. If the FFA guys want stuff that bad, then maybe a little bit of development time can add some fudging on the drop % for the second half of the month. E.G. in February days 1-14 trak guts have a drop rate of 35%. Days 15-28 they drop at a rate of 50%. That way the FFA is still better than the rotation, given the increased difficulty.

But what do I know, I just work and drink alcohol a lot.

[Fael]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

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[radditsu]

Originally Posted by radditsu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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[JayN]

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

[Draagun]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The goal should be to enable both groups in a fair manner that does not unduly impact the other.

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Draagun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

And many of us casual raiders have come to P99 as a refuge against the terrible communities that exist in games without even the slightest bit of player interdependence which brings about a drastic decline in the quality of community. We come here for a refuge from bad community, looking for actual cooperation and an enjoyable experience.

That's why Rogean's plan is likely the best. It lets each of us raid in exactly the way we want, independent of one another. You get the environment you want, I get the environment I want. VP is the sacrifice all casual/relaxed guilds give to have this, as we are surrendering our right to ever bring casual raiding to that progression. Instead, we want to be able to live out our dreams of earning our epics, getting some kills, while doing it in a positive, constructive way with a strong community.

You're not wrong, but neither are casuals like myself. Both groups exist in EQ, both groups exist as people. We all want refuge from what WoW has become, as not only is the game fucking easy to hell (the problem hardcores would have), but it also has the single most toxic gaming community until League of Legends.

I work hard when I play a game, I do everything I can to master it, but a hardcore raiding environment is not something I enjoy, in this game or in others. It makes me feel like a horrible person to be in and a part of such environments. It's alright that you don't, we're different people. What I seek is a community of like minded individuals devoted to the goal of having a great time in the best MMO created to date, at the best time it existed, rather than shutting down others. I want to earn my epic by prying the pieces I need off the corpse of Cazic-Thule and Innoruuk, and know that I earned them, not that I paid a higher tier guild that had it exclusively on lockdown, or by joining a raiding style that makes me feel like less of a person (again, no problem if you don't feel that way, we're different people). That's why those mobs are so important in the negotiations. There are few things more fundamental to the nostalgia of EverQuest Classic than being able to earn one's epic, while both highly competitive raids, and rotations/cooperative raids are seen throughout. Anyone who wants to work hard at it should have the opportunity to achieve their dreams of a time long past, and shouldn't have to sell out their principles on behalf of a game to earn some pixels when we all should be here to have fun.

Cooperation, and competition, are both core to EverQuest, and both are really good for the right people. So, how can we best create a system that allows for both systems to happen? Rogean's plan does that, by letting hardcores hardcore the way hardcore people want to hardcore, and casuals can casual in the way casuals want to casual. Instead of making hardcores become casual, or casuals become hardcore, let them each do their own thing. That's what the staff plan allows for. If the goal is competition, awesome, this allows for it. If the goal is to enjoy other people's failures, if the goal is schadenfreude, then this is not a good plan.

We have a common ground in that we don't want to go to what happened in WoW and most other MMOs, but we are each reaching for a different EQ experience. That's why I really believe the Staff proposal is the best one out there. It lets each of our groups be ourselves, amongst ourselves. Our desires are not incompatible, but they need to be given their own space to bloom in their own way, you know? We are all here to have fun, one of our groups having fun at the cost of the other isn't fair by any legitimate standard.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Draagun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

Will all respect, I don't think you understand the thrust of my post.

To give you perspective, I am one of the more senior members of TMO, and I am extremely active in the hardcore environment. I am not looking for "easy mode." I am simply attempting to illustrate shortcomings in the current raid proposals. Casuals have a legitimate expectation to meaningfully, if not frequently, participate in the endgame to a reasonable extent.

The point is that both sides have valid complaints, but those complaints cannot, in my view, be satisfactorily addressed in the manner that people are now attempting. A radically different scheme is needed. To amelioriate that, I am proposing a complete segregation of the populations that maintains a classic element (repops) along side a classic theme (hardcore domination with regards to total mob kill amounts).

[Ciroco]

Originally Posted by Draagun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

I'm a hardcore raider from EQ Live that wants nothing to do with what "hardcore" has become here, and I'm not the only one.