People that never played classic EQ

[Non Quixote]

At least one poster keeps getting hung up on basic combat mechanics as an example of how "hard" modern MMOs are. I'll be the first to admit that modern MMOs are more twitchy than P99, and most classes have a larger toolkit, but does that really qualify them as "harder"? Isn't having a larger toolkit better than entering combat with the bare essentials? Having said that, most modern MMOs allow you to macro things so easily that you end up back at one button or maybe two that you spam during combat. To say that P99 players hit AA and then take a nap or surf the Web makes me wonder if the poster has even played the game.

It would seem that because the word "hard" is undefined and nebulous it can be applied ambiguously to most MMOs, depending on your point of view.

Assuming no twinkage and no PLing, we can all agree that P99 leveling is far, far more grindy than the vast majority of modern MMOs. Does that make it harder, or just more of a grind? P99 leveling certainly demands more patience and determination. You won't get max level in a few weeks. And most classes will have a difficult to impossible time getting there on their own. Contrast this to modern MMOs.

WoW has gotten to the point that you can literally find epic PvE gear lying around as groundspawn (Timeless Isle). Not so the case with P99. Sure, you can buy gear in the EC tunnel, but with what? I've been playing for a couple of months now and I have about 500pp to my name, and my main is sporting a full set of banded. Anything much better is out of my financial reach.

Death. This one facet of the game, far above all others defines P99 as "harder" than modern MMOs in at least this category. Death in modern MMOs is a slight annoyance, nothing more. On P99 it can be, and often is, at least time consuming and dangerous to recover from (relatively speaking).

Travel. Flying mounts and/or portals everywhere in modern MMOs. Need I say more?

My litmus test on the difficulty or brutality of a game is: could an average 12 year old play it with at least moderate success and not rage quit out of frustration? By moderate success I mean accomplish things like reach max level and participate in groups and raids competently. Could anyone possibly call a game "hard" when the answer to this question is "yes"?

Maybe a better description for the difference between modern MMOs and P99 is that P99 is more brutal and unforgiving overall, requiring a great deal more patience and tenacity to gear and level up.

[Eliseus]

The arguments some of you try to come up with are laughable at best, and the best part is you guys only choose to respond to what you want to see and skip 90% of the other things pointed out. On top of it all, for sake of comparison, I thought it would be best to compare project 1999 to classic WoW, not this project 1999 to 2014 WoW (granted, it is still faster to lvl in classic WoW than project 1999, it was significantly slower than current WoW). You guys also base all your thoughts off the leveling system, which is sad in the first place that some of you are really that bad at leveling (which probably explains why you think EQ is so hard). I'll bite though for Non Quixote since he seems to be the only one trying to make some kind of comprehensive response.

Originally Posted by Non Quixote [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Assuming no twinkage and no PLing, we can all agree that P99 leveling is far, far more grindy than the vast majority of modern MMOs. Does that make it harder, or just more of a grind? P99 leveling certainly demands more patience and determination. You won't get max level in a few weeks. And most classes will have a difficult to impossible time getting there on their own. Contrast this to modern MMOs.

Agreed, but not hard, hence the point where I was mentioning you can get away with almost doing nothing in parties.

Originally Posted by Non Quixote [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WoW has gotten to the point that you can literally find epic PvE gear lying around as groundspawn (Timeless Isle). Not so the case with P99. Sure, you can buy gear in the EC tunnel, but with what? I've been playing for a couple of months now and I have about 500pp to my name, and my main is sporting a full set of banded. Anything much better is out of my financial reach.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magician

Are you telling me that that getting gear like the pre-planar gear on this list requires anymore work than just sitting at a spawn spot? Let's not forget that in EQ, you can get some decent pieces of gear just being at a certain camp exping while lvling.

Originally Posted by Non Quixote [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Death. This one facet of the game, far above all others defines P99 as "harder" than modern MMOs in at least this category. Death in modern MMOs is a slight annoyance, nothing more. On P99 it can be, and often is, at least time consuming and dangerous to recover from (relatively speaking).

This is where one would define EQ as harder, and I agree, could be more dangerous, but let us assume for a minute, you were supposedly good enough to do the hardest raiding in WoW. It would be safe to assume you are doing your best to prevent death. Which completely negates this argument as a whole, since you aren't dying. Dying just shows to me that you are bad, or bit off a little more than you can chew. Let us also not forget that at one point during classic WoW there was EXP loss upon death. So is this harder? One would say so, since I'm just going to assume your average player is bad, BUT, it is a design in the game that can technically be completely ignored and never seen.

Originally Posted by Non Quixote [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Travel. Flying mounts and/or portals everywhere in modern MMOs. Need I say more?

I could see how someone would assume this is more dangerous given the leash mechanics and the gryphon masters in WoW, but isn't really deamed more dangerous to travel the world in EQ given you can get a SoW and just outrun basically everything, and if you are running through dangerous stuff in the first place, it's your own fault. Basically stupidity, not anything to do with the difficulty of the game.

Originally Posted by Non Quixote [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My litmus test on the difficulty or brutality of a game is: could an average 12 year old play it with at least moderate success and not rage quit out of frustration? By moderate success I mean accomplish things like reach max level and participate in groups and raids competently. Could anyone possibly call a game "hard" when the answer to this question is "yes"?

I was playing the game when I was 10, so I would assume yes.

Originally Posted by Non Quixote [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe a better description for the difference between modern MMOs and P99 is that P99 is more brutal and unforgiving overall, requiring a great deal more patience and tenacity to gear and level up.

Which is something I tried pointing out in a lot of previous posts that were completely ignored. I think people need to stop thinking EQ is "harder" but maybe more rewarding, but even then I don't know, because if I had a max level character in WoW with all mounts/pets/best gear etc... I almost feel like my character would be more rewarding than an EQ character.

Don't get me wrong, like I have said before, I love EQ and it is probably my favorite MMO, but I think to say harder is an overstatement. On top of it all, every argument revolves around the leveling system which isn't the only aspect of the game. For example, there is tradeskills which I would deem harder in EQ than WoW, well maybe not so much harder, but significantly more time consuming, which again, we should probably find another word than "hard".

Anyways, could keep doing on, but it seems that there is no reason to an already decided mind.

[Schwing]

I think it's harder just because of all the bugs, stuff clipping through walls, and mobs that are your level being significantly more powerful than you. As far as raid content? WOW easily wins; after all, everything is instanced and tuned for 10-, 25- and 40-man raid groups. The 10-mans are much harder than anything in this game, simply because there's no limit to who you can bring along.

But outside of that, I just can't concede that WOW is any more difficult/annoying/time-consuming/whatever you want to call it. This game takes patience that's on another level.

[forensic]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

let us assume for a minute, you were supposedly good enough to do the hardest raiding in WoW. It would be safe to assume you are doing your best to prevent death. Which completely negates this argument as a whole, since you aren't dying. Dying just shows to me that you are bad, or bit off a little more than you can chew. Let us also not forget that at one point during classic WoW there was EXP loss upon death. So is this harder? One would say so, since I'm just going to assume your average player is bad, BUT, it is a design in the game that can technically be completely ignored and never seen.

Massive logic failure

"Dying just shows to me that you are bad"

And so? Those "bad" players are still players who are experiencing the game as hard. Those bad players die in EQ and go backwards in levels and fail to level up. They fail to complete content. They fail to kill a boss or beat a dungeon so they tuck tail and go somewhere easier. They fail in multiple ways--not just failing to level. They fail to level efficiently. They fail to complete content.

People fail in EQ all the time. People fail in WOW all the time. But a lot more people fail in EQ classic than in WoW classic. This is because Blizzard intentionally removed a lot of the pain points from EQ. They added countless hand holding features. Maps, compass, different corpse recovery, different group requirements, solo content, quest hand holders, and more.

WOW is proved to be easier precisely because fewer people fail.

You are trying to reason that failed players do not count as players for the purpose of your analysis, which is absolutely retarded. Failed players cannot be excluded from the analysis because it's the volume of failed players that proves or disproves the difficulty of a game.

Ultimately these are video games... they aren't meaningful achievements in life. Beating a boss in a video game is always a pitiful achievement and is not impressive in reality. But some games are easier than others and people who played both classic EQ and classic WOW find it very easy to recognize that WOW is just straight up easier on many dimensions.

If you remove WOW expansions from the analysis, then the comparison is even CLEARER. Original WOW was FUCKING EASY INCLUDING THE RAIDS. Upper Black Rock Spire was a fucking cakewalk compared to even Blackburrow in EQ. Molten Core was just a zergfest snorefest compared to even the newbie dungeons in EQ. In EQ people have to learn massive amounts of game idiosyncracies and group min/max strategies in order to actually beat the content. Most players find this too challenging so in EQ MOST PLAYERS SKIP MOST OF THE CONTENT BECAUSE IT'S TOO HARD.

Classic EQ is the game where MOST PLAYERS would create Druids and then solo/duo in outdoor easy mode zones just to be able to level AT ALL, while avoiding the hard indoor zones COMPLETELY.

Classic WOW is the game where no one really has to learn any group mechanics in order to beat the hardest content in the game--which in classic WOW was UBRS and Molten Core. I participated in successful Molten Core raids in Classic WOW where the majority of the players suffered from basic incompetence at their class, didn't know anything about the game, and barely even understood basics like how pulling works or how aggro works. People would zerg rush the mobs and as long as there were a few people who knew what they were doing the raid could be successful.

I've been in countless WOW raids where the difference between success or failure was just whether people were willing to go left or right when the raid leader starts telling them to go left or right. It's really pathetic how easy it is, and how people can still fail when it's so easy, but even worse.... how they always end up winning despite incompetence.

There is a foolproof way to beat any WOW content... you just wipe and then do it over and over again until you get lucky and all the noobs you're playing with don't completely fuck up. Then you get your loots. No one has any incentive to get better because the "fail until you win" strategy is quite effective.

Classic WOW was like this. In Burning Crusade they introduced harder content... but BC isn't classic. When they introduced 10man heroic instances they introduced harder content... but Heroic instances aren't classic.

In Classic WOW a complete moron who is truly and fully incompetent by EQ standards, who in EQ could complete basically no content and would be a liability in a group rather than a benefit, can literally complete 100% of the WOW content.

Most players in EQ don't do all the content. They stick to the Oasis/LOIO/etc easy mode progression and skip all the hard stuff. This is because they suck too much to do the hard stuff. In WoW, most players suck even more than EQ players, and yet they complete 100% of the content. Because WOW is just easy on every dimension.

[Non Quixote]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let us also not forget that at one point during classic WoW there was EXP loss upon death.

Never happened. At one point during Beta there was xp loss, but it was removed before live. I'm starting to wonder if you ever really played either game.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by Non Quixote [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Never happened. At one point during Beta there was xp loss, but it was removed before live. I'm starting to wonder if you ever really played either game.

Yeah you are right, my bad on the exp loss. I've never played either game, I brought all the arguments to you anon forum trolls like forensic based off nothing at all and fictional stuff that doesn't exist. Molten Core is fake. Naggy and Vox are fake. None of the classes are real etc blah blah. The exp loss comment is also 100% relevant to the difficulty of the either game, it is the make it or brake it point that determines what side of the fence is really harder. Thank you for pointing this out to me, I never realized something like this could happen. I feel so stupid now, GAHH!!!!!!

[forensic]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah you are right, my bad on the exp loss. I've never played either game, I brought all the arguments to you anon forum trolls like forensic based off nothing at all and fictional stuff that doesn't exist. Molten Core is fake. Naggy and Vox are fake. None of the classes are real etc blah blah. The exp loss comment is also 100% relevant to the difficulty of the either game, it is the make it or brake it point that determines what side of the fence is really harder. Thank you for pointing this out to me, I never realized something like this could happen. I feel so stupid now, GAHH!!!!!!

Why am I "anon"? I'm not anon! That's really offensive that you say I'm anon.

[Eliseus]

I couldn't even read all of your post fully with the massive contradictions to your own arguments.

Oh, let alone how easy WoW raiding was, considering it took a while before anyone could kill C'thun and the ridiculous amount of nerfs it had to go through in comparison of difficulty to the already low % of players that could clear original naxx testifys to your lack of knowledge in WoW. I applaud you there for effort in essay form, though, again, you contradict yourself a decent amount and show mo knowledge at all.

[forensic]

Originally Posted by Eliseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I couldn't even read all of your post fully with the massive contradictions to your own arguments.

I'm just right and everyone knows it. You're the only one who actually thinks this.. and it sounds like you never even played classic WOW

Oh, let alone how easy WoW raiding was, considering it took a while before anyone could kill C'thun

1. that's not classic WOW
2. most people in EQ didn't even raid. 99.9% of EQ players never even looked at the sleeper. In WOW it's quite different.. you have keyboard turners raiding the hardest content and succeeding. This is just a fact. I've seen almost every MMO since The Realm in 1996 and the average player finds WOW to be very easy, but most people like this easiness. The average player finds EQ to be frustratingly and prohibitively hard and they can't even complete basic content. Most people who played EQ never even completed newbie dungeons. In WOW it's quite the opposite.. and that's because WOW content is easier to complete.

and the ridiculous amount of nerfs it had to go through in comparison of difficulty to the already low % of players that could clear original naxx testifys to your lack of knowledge in WoW.

Not classic WOW. Sorry. Already addressed this in the post you didn't read.

I applaud you there for effort in essay form, though, again, you contradict yourself a decent amount and show mo knowledge at all.

The contradictions you're incapable of pointing out because you admit you didn't read it. LOL. How can you find flaws in something you didn't read? You are seriously terrible at forum trolling.

[Eliseus]

Did you just compare any content to the sleeper? What forum trolling, such an overused statement now.

On that note, did you say naxx and aq40 aren't classic WoW? I'd also like to know where your statistics are.

threads like

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...9845598?page=1

For example, "the life of the casual players" (remember, that the hardcore of WoW is supposedly only 1% and this is according to Blizzard) that didn't involve being able to successfully do raid content, either all these people are wrong or you are.

Here is some more reads for how molten core really was for anyone that actually cares to know the truth, not made up stuff.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/08/15/wo...re-experience/

Please refrain from calling someone a troll when you yourself of obviously being a troll.