A Question about the end of Class R Rotation

[eqnewb]

First of all, thanks to Argh and Daldaen especially for their objective input.
Secondly, Rants and Flames post is just that, everyone pointing fingers and lobbying for their side, or someone poking fun at those who are getting so emotionally attached to the issue (I'm not judging, I've been in a similar situation in the past!).

So now, to just make some observations from somewhat who, as I like to repeat, has not participated in the raid/guild scene on this server and is only now starting to figure out where I want to go. I do not make any harsh judgments, because everyone has their own style by which they want to play the game, and everyone, no matter how hardcore or casual, wants to be able to get level 60, do their epic, kill dragons, and above all else, have fun. Isn't that the whole point of us playing this 15 year old game? To relive the great memories of being chased down by polar bears and camping elite gnolls, to fighting giants and frogloks and vampires, to gathering an army to take down a dragon!

Observation 1: There is clearly a gap between guilds in class R. There seems to be the "big 3" as many people have mentioned, a middle tier of guilds who are quite capable in their own right but perhaps are not as powerful in their own right, the "middle tier" we can call them, and then the bottom tier, which seems to be the more casual guilds and/or the new guilds trying to break into class R. This of course completely ignores the fact that class C is an entire tier above all of these, as they are the "competitive" raiders as the GMs/servers like to call it.

Comments: I know from my experiences in raiding that this type of divide is always going to happen naturally. You are going to have your high end hardcores that the majority of the server hates and claims they have no life and just poop sock for days and ruin the fun for everybody. You have the 2nd tier hardcores who in all reality are just as devoted to the game as the 1st tier hardcores if but only they had more time to play, but real life takes up more of their time. Then you have the "casual" hardcores, people who call themselves casuals but in reality, they spend too much time in Norrath to be a simple casual player. And you could continue breaking these tiers further and further down to each individual player, as everyone has their own ideal way to play the game, whether that be to be the best player on the server, have the best gear, compete with other guilds, or simply relive old dungeons, kill a dragon, and socialize with other people who share an interest in Norrath!

Observation 2: Ending the rotation seems to be a very unpopular decision. The top 3 guilds claim that they are tired of sharing rotation slots with the lower tier (in all honesty, I would say it's just the bottom tier of class R, the middle class R guilds I doubt they have a problem with) of class R and would rather just FFA the loots, as they have the advantage when it comes to class R mobs (naturally, they are the more powerful guilds). The middle tier seems to be very accusing and pointing fingers at those 3, with trying to cite different situations when they could not compromise or whatever else. Finger pointing back and forth ensues, and thus you have our 75 page long rants and flames post (of which I'm only on page 20something, but you can only listen to politicians in the making rant for so long). The bottom tier of class R clearly is unhappy with this decision because it effectively prevents them from getting a shot at a lot of targets they would have otherwise got to attempt under the old system.

Comments: What are the pros/cons with this situation? If class R mobs go to FFA, I would think it would make for a healthier type of competition on mobs. First, because every guild would have a shot at every mobs. Also, because of the class R restrictions on mobs, the "big 3" would still be restricted from claiming every mob all the time. And I do not believe the middle tier would be unable to compete; quite the opposite really. If we think about the outcomes, say the "big 3" win 60% of the loot and the rest of class R win 40%, the "big 3" are naturally larger guilds, and thus have to split the gear amongst a larger player base, while some of the middle tier guilds tend to be smaller, with a lower player base to split gear amongst. (perhaps not entirely accurate, but generally speaking I would expect this to be true). Continuing along this line of thinking, if middle to bottom tier guilds are having trouble competing for mobs, they could team up to contest larger dragons and/or compete with the "big 3" on things. From what I have gathered, this was already occuring under the old system, only it was on their rotation slot, rather than in a FFA situation.

Obviously, FFA comes with its own drawbacks. First and foremost, the bottom tier guilds, even if they tried to form alliances, would have significant problems competing with the larger and more experienced guilds. Secondly, as we have seen with class C, lines are quickly drawn in the sand and people who once worked together would quickly become blood enemies, which quickly leaks into the general population of guilds and hatred ensues. I have already experienced guilds showing their unappreciation towards others guilds in situations where perhaps someone was accidentally trained, or they pulled a mob from someone's camp. Rather than react in a civil manner, people tend to assume the worst in these situations. This kind of divide is already starting as we have seen in RnF, guild leaders/officers are already voicing their disapproval of one another.

Observation 3: The dissolving of the rotation is a loot, or pixel as many people tend to term it around these parts, driven move. No matter how the "big 3" guilds want to sugar coat it, they are unhappy about losing loots to lower tier guilds, and believe a FFA situation would allow the situation to normalize in their favor.

Comments: What is wrong with this? Why are they so against admitting to such desires? I have a theory: They are trying to not become what they claim to despise, the hardcores, the class Cs! Making a political move to benefit themselves and bring more loots to their guild is indeed a selfish move, but what is wrong with an officer core pushing to bring the best for their own members? Is that not what they are supposed to do? If they are acting in what they believe is in the best interest of their respective guilds, then by all means, more power to them. Obviously it is an unpopular decision, but is that not how the world typically works? Tier levels of raiders at work here, I say.
In rebuttal, the mid tier R guilds can still compete. They can still fight, and with much more motivation, I would imagine, as they are trying to prove they can still compete with the "big 3". I would imagine this could develop into some healthy competition amongst guilds, if handled appropriately. Of course, it could always go horribly wrong and end with guilds training one another and suspensions being levied to everyone.

Observation 4: The "big 3" are afraid of Class C. Perhaps not without good reason. Their officers understand they cannot realistically compete with TMO/IB on a regular basis to earn enough loots for their respective guilds. Again, they are operating to achieve the highest possible loot numbers for their members, as that is what it always boils down to in this and most every PVE MMO: loots. What other tangible currency is there in EQ? Earning loot is the only way to achieve both wealth as a guild, and to reward its players for loyalty. I feel like I am talking about medieval Europe, when the lords would give loyalty to their kings in return for land and riches.

Comments: I do not have a realistic solution to this situation. I'm not sure there is one. It is the curse of the 2nd tier raiders. They will continue to bully class R, or they will move to Class C and go from the bullies to the little kids being picked on. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that is the situation and the line they are trying to stay so close to but not cross.

What is there as a reasonable conclusion to all of this? Ending the R rotation may not be all bad, though it could have some long-term side effects unforseen atm. There definitely is a disparity between guilds in class R, but perhaps an even larger one between those and that of class C. Perhaps FFA would cause a shift in power, and perhaps not. I find it a very interesting topic to learn more about, as the politics in MMOs have always interested me. Everyone has their own side, and what they want is right and what someone else wants is wrong. Cooperation can be difficult in those situations, and I do not have an answer. I am not sure anyone does, and so perhaps FFA is inevitable.

I want to reiterate that I do not know anyone here personally and I do not know the situations 100% completely. There are 2 sides to every story and then the truth. If I misspoke about a situation, please continue to fill me in, as again I find the political intricacies quite fascinating. If some grammar/spelling is messed up, I apologize for that, but I'm not an English major =P

[Rararboker]

"First, because every guild would have a shot at every mobs."

ONLY if your willing to wake up to batphone calls at 3:30AM and kill a mob within ten minutes.


Aside from that line which caught my eye.....Wow that was a wall of text. Can we get a summary?

[Kekephee]

whoaaaaaa daaaaaaaamn

[kaev]

Originally Posted by eqnewb [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First of all, thanks to Argh and Daldaen especially for their objective input.
[wall o'text]

The appearance of "objective input" is easy. The reality might be just a tad harder to achieve when the posters in question have long histories in the context and their own dogs in the hunt. just sayin...

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

would you shut the fuck up already? you talk out your ass and don't have a clue what is going on but you think you can educate people based on shit you heard, which ends up being translated incorrectly.

Ouch, that's your guildmate, bro. You'll have to excuse Metallikus, he's still sore over falling for the ol' "Sure, go ahead and loot our VP dragon... it's rotting anyway... oh, wait, did you just ninjaloot our kill? Sending a petition now..." gag.

For the TMO peanut gallery who would love nothing more than to have a Class R guild moved to Class C purely out of spite, knowing it would utterly destroy its membership because they have no interest in the petition-quest/FRAPs-quest/train-quest/rules-lawyer quest shitshow that the Class C neckbeard guilds specialize in, we see what you're trying to do -- and I'm sure the GMs do as well.

Class C guilds have long chastised Class R as the beneficiary of "welfare loot". When action was taken to finally hold smaller guilds accountable for gaming the system with their convenient alliances, and to hold Class R accountable for killing their raid targets in a more timely fashion -- you know, actually making us work (track/mobilize) for our pixels instead of standing in line to get our Obamaloot handouts -- we still get grief from Class C, which is fairly hypocritical. After all, they should be pleased that we're working within our class to put a little more effort into earning those pixels, amirite?

And of course the brunt of the grief is all directed at Chest/BDA, who Class C still holds responsible for sticking up for the Class R guilds over a year ago and holding the Class C guilds' noses to the table until this Class C/R/FFA system was set up, restricting the Class C intake of pixels. They will never let that go, and would love to see nothing more than Chest and his guild crushed. They know the easiest way to do that is to pressure the GMs into forcing BDA into Class C. Nevermind the fact that Taken/Divinity have been trying to leave the rotation for 8 months, with BDA remaining neutral:

Originally Posted by Argh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Taken and Divinity have been pushing to leave the rotation for at least the last eight months. Until now, BDA has mediated and remained a neutral party to keep the rotation alive. This turned into a shit-on-BDA fest because they're the only people posting in this thread.

Funny how the court of public opinion tries to pin this all on BDA, mostly because Chest paints a huge target on himself all the time.

None of the recently rejected proposal sounds "more like Class C, so you should be in Class C", unless Class C is offering 60-minutes of uncontested attempts at rotated raid targets within Class C that we don't know about. Last I checked, you weren't. If you are offering to establish a similar agreement with any guild that finds itself in Class C, I'm sure a few Class R guilds might look at that. Yeah, didn't think so. So clearly, this has nothing to do with "treating the smaller guilds the same way we cried that Class C guilds treated us."

This isn't about sticking it to the smaller guilds, or trying to lord over Class R. This is about addressing continued disparity and ending being taken advantage of by those who are gaming the rotation system:

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the first, a guild could determine a black-out period (hours in which they weren't responsible for the mob and the rotation would drop down to whomever was next on rotation and not in blackout). This resulted in the 24-hour guilds (the big 3 if you will), rarely reaching the top of the rotation but having to kill every mob at a shitty hour.

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guilds are occupying slots in the rotation and quite often not killing them themselves. Also due to the current rules, a guild assisting in a kill keeps its rotation slot and does not drop down. Even though they participated in the kill and split the loot.

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The reason for this - in their opinion - is too many guilds. Specifically, too many guilds who are occupying slots but can rarely kill mobs on their own with no assistance.

[quido]

BDA getting rotation mobs is like someone earning $100,000 getting food stamps.

[Blaza]

Originally Posted by quido [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

BDA getting rotation mobs is like someone earning $100,000 getting food stamps.

THANKS OBAMA

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Class C guilds have long chastised Class R as the beneficiary of "welfare loot". When action was taken to finally hold smaller guilds accountable for gaming the system with their convenient alliances, and to hold Class R accountable for killing their raid targets in a more timely fashion -- you know, actually making us work (track/mobilize) for our pixels instead of standing in line to get our Obamaloot handouts -- we still get grief from Class C, which is fairly hypocritical. After all, they should be pleased that we're working within our class to put a little more effort into earning those pixels, amirite?

Consider Class C a disapproving father figure whose love you'll never ever get.

[eqnewb]

Originally Posted by Rararboker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"First, because every guild would have a shot at every mobs."

ONLY if your willing to wake up to batphone calls at 3:30AM and kill a mob within ten minutes.


Aside from that line which caught my eye.....Wow that was a wall of text. Can we get a summary?

If you consider that all mobs have a chance to spawn at anytime of the day, on avg, then you end up in a situation where only 1/4 mobs spawn at night (say, 12-8?) these hours can vary a tad from guild to guild and person to person, but the point remains the same. You do not have to go after every mob at every time. Hence why its FFA, and why whichever guild that does claim the mob will go on lockout, lowering the total level of competition for the next attempt at said mob.

I do not think anyone ever wants to wake up at 330 AM for a batphone call. I've done it a few times, and its takes away the fun of competing for the mob (plus the possibility that someone else could beat you on a mob at 330 AM). Someone is naturally going to go after said mob, that does not mean your specific guild has too. Choices can be made.

[eqnewb]

Perhaps a summary when I'm in class tomorrow and bored again... I spaced it out a bit though so its easier to read