Isn't there a better way to distribute raid loot? If not which is most fair?

[wycca]

Some problems I've always had with DKP -

- You may have the best geared paladin on the server, but hey, your tank lineup isnt deep enough for AoW
- Little Sally can save up for that dream item she has always wanted, blow all of her dkp...and be running around with no ear slot and cloth armor
- Busy Jimmy who amassed 1k dkp years ago can come back and start taking items from members who helped keep the guild competitive the last 6 months
- Evil Monks can make pacts to bid low so they can win all/all items
- You may have a superstar cleric or two, but your other 5-8 clrs die to AE's and go oom fast

So yes, theoretically all of those problems are fixable. Theres so many ways to counter the negative parts of DKP. In the end, you put bandaid upon bandaid upon the entire system.

In the end, the best thing for guild progression is a data-driven loot council system. Which is why both TMO and IB run one (as well as a host of the top guilds on live did).

[radda]

i didnt read anything but vote zero-sum

[ArumTP]

My personal issues with DKP
-large un-ascend-ablely large DKP pools that can grow.

This is a problem that is more unique to P99 than in live. On live we had more and more new content and items to spend our points on. On here we stagnate, there isn't a new continuous flow of BiS items to go spend it on.

Its pretty easy to go full planar (and even sometimes full sky as well) but the next step VP/dragon/god loots is a point that people get locked out on. It becomes all you can spend it on, and you just never get it, so the dkp just piles up. Other toons in a guild end up in the same spot, and soon all you have is a guild force that needs nothing but that top tier loot, and no means to acquire it.

Pools get so large that DKP has no value, it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 1000 dkp if you got nothing to spend it on.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by ArumTP [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My personal issues with DKP
-large un-ascend-ablely large DKP pools that can grow.

This is a problem that is more unique to P99 than in live. On live we had more and more new content and items to spend our points on. On here we stagnate, there isn't a new continuous flow of BiS items to go spend it on.

Its pretty easy to go full planar (and even sometimes full sky as well) but the next step VP/dragon/god loots is a point that people get locked out on. It becomes all you can spend it on, and you just never get it, so the dkp just piles up. Other toons in a guild end up in the same spot, and soon all you have is a guild force that needs nothing but that top tier loot, and no means to acquire it.

Pools get so large that DKP has no value, it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 1000 dkp if you got nothing to spend it on.

The problem you describing is a function of playing on a static server, not a problem caused by dkp systems. If you cap your dkp hoarding rules, say at 100 dkp, you still have the exact same problem if there is no loot to spend it on anymore.

You'll see some of the hoarders tap into the dkp pools in velious to get some hot items first...but you'll be in the same boat in 3 years...or 5 years...or 7 years.

Its a static server. Loot eventually loses its meaning compared to live. There are a couple of exceptions, but by and large, this is the future if this server survives long enough to get there.

This is why I don't understand why there is so much loot loving on this server. In the end, even the best items in the game are going to be worth far far less than you could ever have imagined them being on live. You'd think this setup would lure the folks who love to play EQ for "non-loot" reasons---when the reality of p99 is that (at least it seems without knowing the data) most of the server is engaged in never ending attempts to acquire more loot.

I mean, to each their own. I'm obviously wrong (or at least in the minority) when it comes to how I play the game here. Its just surprising to me how many folks on p99 are playing so "hard-core" when they know the server isn't going anywhere after velious launch/patches. On live, we played that way because you had to maintain your advantage for the next expansion.

[ArumTP]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem you describing is a function of playing on a static server, not a problem caused by dkp systems. If you cap your dkp hoarding rules, say at 100 dkp, you still have the exact same problem if there is no loot to spend it on anymore.

You'll see some of the hoarders tap into the dkp pools in velious to get some hot items first...but you'll be in the same boat in 3 years...or 5 years...or 7 years.

Its a static server. Loot eventually loses its meaning compared to live. There are a couple of exceptions, but by and large, this is the future if this server survives long enough to get there.

This is why I don't understand why there is so much loot loving on this server. In the end, even the best items in the game are going to be worth far far less than you could ever have imagined them being on live. You'd think this setup would lure the folks who love to play EQ for "non-loot" reasons---when the reality of p99 is that (at least it seems without knowing the data) most of the server is engaged in never ending attempts to acquire more loot.

I mean, to each their own. I'm obviously wrong (or at least in the minority) when it comes to how I play the game here. Its just surprising to me how many folks on p99 are playing so "hard-core" when they know the server isn't going anywhere after velious launch/patches. On live, we played that way because you had to maintain your advantage for the next expansion.

True, there is no endgame. Nothing to do when you hit 60 other than raid to get BiS. Get bored cause you are all geared up or can't get geared up, and up rolling another guy to 60, same thing happens. Thats why we always want more and more loot.

[Ishbu]

Im surprised to hear of some of these issues considering I thought they had simple solutions back when I ran a guild.

Our DKP system had a cap, once you hit the cap, you cant earn anymore DKP, so I suggest buying an item if youve been hoarding it. On top of that, attendence was tracked so if you werent making X% of the raids, your dkp was weighted accordingly, so you couldnt just hit the cap and skip all raids but the one for the item you want.

Problems solved.

[Llodd]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doubt away. We're happy with our system.

Oh I'm sure you and the majority are. Personally I don't have any problems with well run loot councils. . But unless you're all robots then you will never have 100% happiness from all members. Saying otherwise is being blindly ignorant at best, fallacious at worst.

[Danth]

Fairness is what you make of it; if everyone involved goes home satisfied, then the system's fair. Different people like different systems, nothing new there.

My take: You want to pay me a form of currency for showing up when scheduled and following your orders? Sounds like a job if you ask me. If you want an employee, the only currency I'll accept is dollars. Imaginary DKP currency doesn't cut it. I won't join any guild that uses it and will immediately disband from a guild which transitions to it. Rather than turning my video game into a second job, I prefer awarding items to whoever most deserves them, or even straight /random over pseudo currency. Of course I don't much like raiding in the first place, and DKP systems tend to be designed to encourage folks into raiding more often than they otherwise would, leading to my distaste for those types of systems. I've nothing against folks who like DKP systems, but they aren't for me.

Danth

[SCB]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rather than turning my video game into a second job, I prefer awarding items to whoever most deserves them, or even straight /random over pseudo currency.

DKP awards those who most deserve it in EverQuest, because to "fight" you press Q and stand somewhere for X minutes. The only factor of "skill" in raiding with the huge guilds and 30-second 32k mob fights we have is attendance/batphoning.

That's why non-instanced raiding is so unattractive.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by SCB [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...The only factor of "skill" in raiding with the huge guilds and 30-second 32k mob fights we have is attendance/batphoning.

That's why non-instanced raiding is so unattractive.

You can take out the "non-instanced" part and it's still accurate for me; I dislike raiding as a mode of gameplay, period. I'll do it once in a blue moon but if I go on too many raids I rapidly get sick of it and quit logging in. Heck I haven't been on a raid since I think October. Guilds that use DKP tend to want to raid a lot (don't need a complicated loot system if you raid twice a month) so such guilds don't appeal to me. Of course I speak strictly for myself and I make no claims of there being an ultimate loot system...only what works or doesn't work for me.

Danth