The Corona Perspective Some of You Seem to lack

[Castle2.0]

The flu killing 200-600k people per year does not average 600k people. Ergo, your data is false and makes your arguments irrelevant.

Lol.

"You chose the upper end of the range of the range of official numbers I am willing to accept. Therefore, your ENTIRE argument is wrong. AND I WIN THE ARGUMETN ERMERGERDH!!11!!!"

Okay, I'll update my question with the most up-to-date range - will you answer it? I think you either are missing my point or starting to see my point and aren't liking it because you have no answer.

Originally Posted by John Paget, Peter Spreeuwenberg, Vivek Charu, Robert J Taylor, A Danielle Iuliano, Joseph Bresee, Lone Simonsen, Cecile Viboud, and for the Global Seasonal Influenza-associated Mortality Collaborator Network and GLaMOR Collaborating Teams

Until recently, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated the annual mortality burden of influenza to be 250,000 to 500,000 all-cause deaths globally; however, a 2017 study indicated a substantially higher mortality burden, at 290 000-650 000 influenza-associated deaths from respiratory causes alone, and a 2019 study estimated 99,000-200,000 deaths from lower respiratory tract infections directly caused by influenza. Here we revisit global and regional estimates of influenza mortality burden and explore mortality trends over time and geography.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6815659/

If you do support forced-masks and forced-lockdowns for COVID, why didn't you support them for flu? Could we not cut down the 389,000 to 850,000 annual deaths by a significant factor using these measures? If so, why not use them?

Hope you can answer. Unless I have a dangling participle or something in my sentence that completely refutes my argument, that is.

[douglas1999]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is flatly wrong to say there is nearly identical death rates.

Okay then, let's call them marginally different fatality rates. You still didn't answer the question.

Ebola is "contained" because it only spreads under highly specific conditions, but is very deadly. Covid spreads much more easily, but has a *much* lower fatality rate. Given these facts, why do you advocate for masking to prevent covid but not the flu?

[Jibartik]

I cant do this, this is a major step backwards if you think the whole world is all wrong and whatever it is that has given you this information is right.

I can, never, ever, ever, come to a common ground with you.

It is not remotely like the flu, its not even the same type of virus, its not even close, if you dont know that it's just one of the many points of context that are integral in understanding how virus's and containment works.

And if you believe what you just said then you dont even beleve in data. So I just cant ever, EVER be able to make any sense to you.

Ive made my arguments as clear as I can and if I tried to make them any clearer, it would be productive for onlyl one reason, to troll jibartik into ranting about something htat really hurts his opinion of people and his country.

I am not ok with you guys feeling the way you feel and stuff, I think its very bad. Im sorry but I have to go!

Good luck solving world hunger I'm sure you guys will lick it, because all you have to do is tell people not to care about it, because there is such thing as influenza.

RE: castle, I cant even get into it, i really cant, I made my point clear, I think your taking massive amounts of things out of context and if you didn't, and listened to what I said you would understand why i dont believe in forced mandates for flu virus's

Edit Edit: (I really am so mad im not gonna lie) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Those documents you link actually support my argument, you're literally chosing the high yeild number and saying its "the average." of those numbers

The average is much more like 250k yearlly ok?

Do you not understand covid is not a new flu that will come around every year?? by containing it for 2 years we dont have to contain it anymore.

Im not saying to do that, and then, now lets all remove all our freedoms so nobody ever dies again.

How could you be so obtuse to even consider that is a logical comparison????

DO YOU NOT GET THAT??

Why do I have to be Draconian OR anarchist to you????????

[Castle2.0]

The average is much more like 250k yearlly ok?

Incorrect.

There are two things they mention:

1. "290,000-650,000 influenza-associated deaths from respiratory causes alone"
2. "99,000-200,000 deaths from lower respiratory tract infections directly caused by influenza"

That's 290,000 + 99,000 for the lower end, and 650,000 + 200,000 for the upper end.

Either you believe we should take these measures for flu or not.

If so, why? If not, why not?

Pretzel, feel free to answer. ANYONE who has been for forced mask mandates and force lockdowns feel free to answer.

The most telling fact so far is your refusal to answer these simple questions.

If you do support forced-masks and forced-lockdowns for COVID, why didn't you support them for flu? Could we not cut down the 389,000 to 850,000 annual deaths by a significant factor using these measures? If so, why not use them?

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Castle2.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Incorrect.

There are two things they mention:

1. 290 000-650 000 influenza-associated deaths from respiratory causes alone
2. 99,000-200,000 deaths from lower respiratory tract infections directly caused by influenza

That's 290,000 + 99,000 for the lower end, and 650,000 + 200,000 for the upper end.



Either you believe we should take these measures for flu or not.

If so, why? If not, why not?

Pretzel, feel free to answer. ANYONE who has been for forced mask mandates and force lockdowns feel free to answer.

The most telling fact so far is your refusal to answer these simple questions.

If you do support forced-masks and forced-lockdowns for COVID, why didn't you support them for flu? Could we not cut down the 389,000 to 850,000 annual deaths by a significant factor using these measures? If so, why not use them?

Look, you're trying to do hand wavey shit and tossing a lot of numbers around but im saying the numbers are even irrelevant when it comes to flu/covid

not to mention the death rate of the flu ranges from VERY HIGH to very low year by year, and its an entierly different flu that cant be contained and all the other things that im repeating myself again and again about that you are IGNORING!

Flu is different, its not containable, covid is a different virus all together, it is containable. There will be a vaccine!

JUST LIKE YOU SAY TRUMP IS NOT A NAZI and his supporters are not racists : I do not want to enforce masks ,and new overlords to protect us from the flu, and also remove cars, and also put a police officer in every house to prevent accidents, and take away free will, just because I want to contain COVID for 2 years while we develop a vaccine!!!!

[Jibartik]

Me: we should spend more money on education
Anti: There are no schools in some countries, so since you clearlyl dont want to enforce everyone mandating volunteer work at schools all around the world, you cant possibly want schools in america.

All im saying is we could have reduced deaths by not acting like YOLO was the only way to live, and we had someone at the helm that thought about how people would want to open up the economy rather than just telling them to do it.

Im just saying its sad that we dont think that we blew it as badly as we did. That's all I think we should feel. Just a little bummed that we're this bad.

[Castle2.0]

Sorry mate, I have to "listen to the health experts"

Originally Posted by Clark Donald Russell

“Eradication of microbial disease is a will-o’-the-wisp; pursuing it leads into a morass of hazy biological concepts and half truths.”

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3341977/

So you're saying we SHOULDN'T use the same lockdown measures because the two are VERY different?

On similarity v differences of Flu and Covid see: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/flu-vs-covid19.htm

Pretty darn similar.

How is COVID containable and flu is not? Was H1N1 containable? If so, why haven't we contained it? If it isn't, why is COVID any different?

[Castle2.0]

Me: we should spend more money on education
Anti: There are no schools in some countries, so since you clearlyl dont want to enforce everyone mandating volunteer work at schools all around the world, you cant possibly want schools in america.

Me: Don't spend any more money on schools. It hasn't worked.

But to stay on topic... You are talking about allocating limited resources: money. That's not the case here. Social distancing, enforced masking, etc.

ADVOCACY isn't a limited resource. Why do you not SUPPORT (at 0 cost to you) these measures for flu?

[Castle2.0]

If you believe education should be free why not just saying ALL people EVERYWHERE deserve free education? To make such a statement costs you nothing. It shows you are consistent with your view.

I'm just asking if we should use these measures you say work and why not use them for flu?

Do they not work for flu? Will hand washing, social distancing, enforced masking, and economic shutdown, not save lives from the annual flu pandemic?

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Castle2.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sorry mate, I have to "listen to the health experts"



So you're saying we SHOULDN'T use the same lockdown measures because the two are VERY different?

On similarity v differences of Flu and Covid see: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/flu-vs-covid19.htm

Pretty darn similar.

How is COVID containable and flu is not? Was H1N1 containable? If so, why haven't we contained it? If it isn't, why is COVID any different?

Flu epidemics reoccur every year because of the the way the virus is built and how it interacts with the human immune system. influenza's like best asset is its extremely fast ability to change (mutate) and that's why it's not containable.

Covid's best asset is its agility to live outside of the body and through some wide temp ranges. Its like the cocroach of virus's but, it put all its stats into Stamina, and not its ability to mutate, so if we can reduce the spread, so long that we can become immune to it or capture it in pockets where people are highly immune to it and it dies, without an excess # of people dying.

We win.

But we're at containing it at this point, without a MASSIVE number of people dying, because we lost control around feb/march and any hope of there just being 50-60k deaths, which would have been best case scenario IMO.

Edit: btw I totally do wish education could be excellent and free everywhere hehe and I do hope we can reduce flu deaths by trying to support the science as best as I can and by donating and volunteering! But that's not enforced and I dont think we should enforce that!