Wizard dps vs melee in groups?

[Psionide]

Gyno if rogean was going to bring the server down when your advertising he is, he would change it just to make you look like the fucktard you are.

[Broot]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is the wizard useless in such a situation? Of course not. But if you replace the wizard with a good enchanter, that pull is suddenly not only no problem, but good xp.

The discussion was about Wizard filling a DPS role. My lengthy post was to describe how a Wizard has benefits to bring to a party to compensate for its inferior DPS to other DPS classes. Wizard does not fill a crowd control role- and I am not arguing that. Enchanter has no relevance to this topic. This topic is about Wizard group DPS being inferior in groups. I wanted to point out to the OP that a wizard's inferior DPS can be offset by other options they bring to a group.

Most problem scenarios occur in the pulling phase or the crowd controlling phase. If something should go wrong such as unexpected adds or a series of unfortunate mez resists, a Wizard has some options to save the group that other DPS roles don't have.

[Slave]

Originally Posted by Broot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The discussion was about Wizard filling a DPS role. My lengthy post was to describe how a Wizard has benefits to bring to a party to compensate for its inferior DPS to other DPS classes. Wizard does not fill a crowd control role- and I am not arguing that. Enchanter has no relevance to this topic. This topic is about Wizard group DPS being inferior in groups. I wanted to point out to the OP that a wizard's inferior DPS can be offset by other options they bring to a group.

Most problem scenarios occur in the pulling phase or the crowd controlling phase. If something should go wrong such as unexpected adds or a series of unfortunate mez resists, a Wizard has some options to save the group that other DPS roles don't have.

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Originally Posted by Slave [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All those talking about how Wizards are useful because of their escape capabilities, remember that when you have a Wizard in your group, you are relatively understrength and may need that capability more often, leading to a self-serving prophecy.

tldr: Got a Wizard? Then you'll be needing that Evac. lol

[Broot]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Reality check: no, they don't. A L60 wizard has 3000 mana and can do perhaps 12k damage in full burn mode. A L50 mob has 10k hp. If you pull 4 krup shamans, the wizard is not going to blast them all (or even two of them) away, or kite them with aoe snare. Is the wizard useless in such a situation? Of course not. But if you replace the wizard with a good enchanter, that pull is suddenly not only no problem, but good xp.

The simple fact is that I have no idea why there is an advertisement for a new PVP server on a thread about why wizards are . . . underpowered . . . in XP groups.

Originally Posted by Slave [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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tldr: Got a Wizard? Then you'll be needing that Evac. lol

Inferior DPS doesn't create most trouble scenarios. Usually trouble comes from botched pulls and botched crowd control. Wizard has no role in either of these. Therefore; having a wizard in your party does not create evac situations.

[Kairun]

Im going to have to side with having a wizard in the group as long as the wizard has C2. Its a lot safer with a wiz in the group besides evac - lol -. When adds come, Wiz Roots, Ench Mezzes so when mezzes break or resist the clerics not blowing mana on healing the ench. Okay, So youre fighting a tough mob and its tearing through your tank because he doesnt have 100k to spend on gear, tanks at 10% hp, oh no CH has 5 more seconds left. BOOM 700 dmg 8 second stun, whats up now? Clerics out of mana, Wiz has 60% mana left, mobs at 70%, mobs dead in 12 seconds and you guys are still alive and dont have to do CRs or clear the way back to fighting spot because you had to zone. on the average dps scale.. yeah rogues/monks take it but id rather have a good wizard in the group over 3 dpses... By good wiz i mean a wizard who actually uses root, who actually knows when to blow down mobs by spacing out nukes, and knows when to time the DD Stuns.
"average" dps, wizards dont win, they let the rogues do the light work and only have to unroll their sleeves when shit hits the fan.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Slave [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would say that 10k hp at 50th level is quite accurate.

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. I've tested hp totals for typical exp mobs in different high-end zones (mostly to see what kinds of ae groups would work). You should never be exping off mobs that have 10k hp when most blue mobs have half that much.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. I've tested hp totals for typical exp mobs in different high-end zones (mostly to see what kinds of ae groups would work). You should never be exping off mobs that have 10k hp when most blue mobs have half that much.

Giegue, you making bad assumptions.

Obviously you can get to L60 without ever fighting a L50 mob. But you are losing out on most of the best loot in the game: HS South and the Chef/Crypt/Shroom areas of Sebilis all have L50 trash mobs. And the XP is actually quite good if you have good dps (250+ = kills every 40 seconds). This is not hard if you form a solid group (warrior 60/rogue 90/chain pulling monk 40/enchanter 100/shaman 0/ cleric 0 = 290). Of course you won't get there with (paladin 30/mage 60/wizard 20/druid 20/bard 30/cleric 0 = 140).

These loot-ridden L50 mobs have 10k hp. Go parse any mob that hits for 140 if you don't believe me. This is precisely the reason that they are harder. 4 low 40s lava duct crawlers will be blue at 60 but they aren't going to wipe any high 50s group, because with their 4-5k hp they'll die fast. It's precisely the L50 mobs with their higher resists, HP, damage, etc. that are actually dangerous.

Let me put the question to you then: what is your definition of a scenario of "the shit hits the fan" for a high 50s group? This is the scenario when all the wizards have been talking about how they kick ass.

[Splorf22]

BTW I would like to add to this that I have no problem grouping with a wizard if he is funny and enjoyable. I'm just saying reality is EQ is a horribly unbalanced game.

[Slave]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true. I've tested hp totals for typical exp mobs in different high-end zones (mostly to see what kinds of ae groups would work). You should never be exping off mobs that have 10k hp when most blue mobs have half that much.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"The data only includes the original EQ and the first expansion Ruins of Kunark so I was not able to get a sample of level 70 mobs."

Oh hey, I was a little off, looks like the average hps of a level 50 mob is more like 12,000. Thanks again.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Slave [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"The data only includes the original EQ and the first expansion Ruins of Kunark so I was not able to get a sample of level 70 mobs."

Oh hey, I was a little off, looks like the average hps of a level 50 mob is more like 12,000. Thanks again.

I figured we were talking about exp groups, which would make your graph irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the average level 50 mob has a certain amount of hp, because exping off of mobs with that amount of hp is inefficient. Are you denying that there are blue mobs (all the way to 60) with less than half that amount of hp?

Originally Posted by Splorf

Giegue, you making bad assumptions.

Obviously you can get to L60 without ever fighting a L50 mob. But you are losing out on most of the best loot in the game: HS South and the Chef/Crypt/Shroom areas of Sebilis all have L50 trash mobs. And the XP is actually quite good if you have good dps (250+ = kills every 40 seconds). This is not hard if you form a solid group (warrior 60/rogue 90/chain pulling monk 40/enchanter 100/shaman 0/ cleric 0 = 290). Of course you won't get there with (paladin 30/mage 60/wizard 20/druid 20/bard 30/cleric 0 = 140).

These loot-ridden L50 mobs have 10k hp. Go parse any mob that hits for 140 if you don't believe me. This is precisely the reason that they are harder. 4 low 40s lava duct crawlers will be blue at 60 but they aren't going to wipe any high 50s group, because with their 4-5k hp they'll die fast. It's precisely the L50 mobs with their higher resists, HP, damage, etc. that are actually dangerous.

Right, I know all this. But clearly if you're in it just for the loot, dps isnt really that big of a deal. If you're in it for loot *and* experience, your point is valid. I just felt that your example was a bit of a red herring since if a player is willingly exping off of mobs with 10K hp, they've already make a decision that they won't be getting very fast exp. But I see why someone would still want mediocre exp over terrible exp, and hence would still choose a rogue over a wizard, so what you're saying is fair.