Alter End-Game Mechanics

[falkun]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

From what I've seen, raiding guilds on p99 have far greater numbers than were historically on my eqlive server. I would hate to make a system that somehow made things worse :T

If raid mobs all popped at the same, known time, guilds would poopsock their highest priority targets.
A single guild (TMO currently) would still get most of the targets because they are large enough and/or have enough well-placed alts to mobilize multiple forces and/or quickly mobilize or camp over to other targets, as they have done on previous full respawns lately (Vox+Trak anyone?).

Raiding guilds are much larger on this server than Live because we are all in one place and the competition caters to guilds of the largest size.

These factors were mitigated on Live by rapid deployment of content (faster than one person could achieve multiple characters to absorb the content on), creating a longer grind (necessity of AAs meant players did not have time to devote to alts), and raid size restrictions (originally 72, now I think Live raids are 30man?). Classically, you cannot accomplish any of these (except maybe content deployment, which is determined by server staff capability) because AAs and raid interface are two non-classic additions to Everquest.

You, as a server developer, are stuck between a rock and a hard place and I do not envy you. As has already been mentioned in this thread, scarcity creates demand. Unless you dilute the item pool, you will not reduce the demand. At the same time, a lot of players stick around and don't "get max level and quit" because things are not diluted and the time investment is so great.

The only reason things have improved lately is because people stopped fighting. To quote Alarti, "IB is gone, VD is gone." There isn't another guild that wishes to, as Amelinda puts it, "TAKE mobs from TMO". The effort doesn't justify the rewards and the support the rest of the server would need from staff in enforcing the rules is not adequate (not that they don't do a good job when they are available, but they cannot humanly resolve everything). So the fighting is done, TMO owns the server, and the rest of us bitch at TMO for owning the server.

It'll go like this until either another guild steps up and "takes mobs from TMO", making Amelinda's life miserable but giving her exactly what she asked for or TMO gets bored killing the same thing without competition, realizing they'd rather have a PVP game than trying to PVP within some arbitrary bounds of PVE. After that next coup, we'll see if the new overlords turn out to be the same as the old (similar to IB -> TMO), or if they will be better or, Tunare forbid, worse. Eventually we'll reach some form of equilibrium, much as EQMac has now that its seven (is that right?) years old. I'm sure EQMac had some hard times in its adolescent time as well. EQMac, as a server, is wise in its old-age.

Back to the original topic, I think full server resets are nice. They give the smaller guilds a shot, at least, at one or two targets before TMO sweeps all they can kill away. They also add additional loot (the dilution I mentioned earlier) because they force spawn mobs faster than their intended range. EQMac has full resets every other week, I think something similar here would be nice, even if every 3 weeks.

I think the variance is a bit on the ridiculous side. The only people you're still getting to waste time with tracking is TMO. The rest of us wait for the "scrap of the week" from TMO, and then casually track that one target until it spawns. If we have the people on, we kill it, if not, its left for the next guild to casually kill at their leisure. Changing the variance to +/-12hrs on either side will still allow raid mobs to spawn at times more opportune for other time zones (as opposed to 11PM EST killing Gore and then the Asian time zones always being screwed out of his static respawn time), but TMO's trackers will get to breathe (unless they REALLY love tracking -that- much).

I'm conflicted about tokens. While I'd love to get my epic, and I'm sure other players would too, its definitively "not classic". However, I can see the argument for implementing the "spawned" mobs sooner. Spawned VS, Undead Bard (spawned Trak), spawned Faydedar, moving Hate/Fear epic pieces from the gods to the minibosses; these are all Velious classic changes that we will see on this server, help the raid scene, and can be implemented ahead of time. If you want to stick to classic, then change them when they were chronologically changed, "the change was implemented X months after epic release on Live, so implement it here X months after epics were released on P99, regardless of if Hate as a whole has been updated to 2.0 or if Velious has (not) been released yet."

As for the future, I'd suggest increasing the difficulty of Velious mobs. You already have charm on Kunark dragons (not classic as far as I can tell), but something more needs to be done. As you've mentioned, the guilds are larger, and as we all know, the strats are 10+ years old. I don't know how you'd do this, whether through more HPs (hello shitty Vex Thal), add additional raid boss mechanics (not classic), make them hit harder (hello shitty random number generator "IH8U" roll), or some other method. You might make more "linked" fights, IE: you pull Vindi, but you have to deal with the 3 guards that come with him (hello Emp Ssra) (that can't be monk-split or DoT+COS+COH pulled). I don't know all the solutions you can come up with, but make the content harder. Velious getting cleared in a night would make me a sad panda. I'm sure TMO might actually enjoy a PVE challenge for once too, instead of begging the server for a PVP challenge.

[LizardNecro]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still interested in hearing proposals for better end game systems. In the past, I have tried to comment on the ones I thought were good and still in the spirit of classic, non-instanced raiding.

If there was a perfect system in which raid targets spawned simultaneously within a certain window:

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

From what I've seen, raiding guilds on p99 have far greater numbers than were historically on my eqlive server. I would hate to make a system that somehow made things worse :T

Anyways, keep up the proposals. Hopefully something is suggested that supports more guilds getting targets without diminishing competition.

I'm very interested in the token system proposed on the sleeper emulator server.
What I like about it is that it gives top guilds the ability to get *most* raid bosses, just not *all* raid bosses.

The token idea, as I understand it, gives guilds the ability to have a certain number of spawns on demand per week. The vast majority of spawns are still normal spawns, and the guild that puts in the most work would get those spawns. But, each guild would still be able to use tokens to get some spawns.

Ravager has made a very good point that most people on this server just want to play EQ cooperatively. They want to kill dragons with friends. The current raid environment doesn't allow this.

I think I'd like to see a solution that has the following criteria:

a) Gives smaller guilds the ability to do content.
b) Gives hard working guilds rewards for their work.

Instances meets a), but doesn't meet b). The current situation meets b), but doesn't meet a).

I think tokens are a great solution that meet a) and b).

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

However, I can see the argument for implementing the "spawned" mobs sooner. Spawned VS, Undead Bard (spawned Trak), spawned Faydedar, moving Hate/Fear epic pieces from the gods to the minibosses; these are all Velious classic changes that we will see on this server, help the raid scene, and can be implemented ahead of time. If you want to stick to classic, then change them when they were chronologically changed, "the change was implemented X months after epic release on Live, so implement it here X months after epics were released on P99, regardless of if Hate as a whole has been updated to 2.0 or if Velious has (not) been released yet."

If not tokens, then this seems like a very nice idea as well.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still interested in hearing proposals for better end game systems. In the past, I have tried to comment on the ones I thought were good and still in the spirit of classic, non-instanced raiding.

If there was a perfect system in which raid targets spawned simultaneously within a certain window:

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

From what I've seen, raiding guilds on p99 have far greater numbers than were historically on my eqlive server. I would hate to make a system that somehow made things worse :T

Anyways, keep up the proposals. Hopefully something is suggested that supports more guilds getting targets without diminishing competition.

Here's a list for you Nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

• What is your definition of competition in PVE EQ? I just don't think this whole concept makes sense really.
• I'm a scientist. You are asking questions that can be verified experimentally and easily. Setup two or three dates where you preannounce when you are going to reboot the server. Measure results. TMO claims they'll still get everything - lets find out.
• It's not hard to implement anti-poopsocking code. Just make it so that whenever a raid mob spawns, everyone in the zone is immediately evacuated to the zone in and the entire zone is repopped, plus anyone who logs in while said raid mob is up logs in at the zone safe point regardless of where they camped out. The guild that camps out right outside the zone will still have the advantage of course, but it won't be nearly as high as it is now. Part of the reason TMO is so unstoppable at this kind of thing is that many of them have 2 or more L60 toons, especially now with the IB character RMTs. With 2-3 targets in window at most with variance, they can simply park one toon at each raid mob.
• Alarti is right and Velious is the real answer. Although personally I'm almost inclined to quit just because I'm currently the unluckiest player on the server and am simply unable to win a roll on anything. I calculated that I had a ridiculous 1/1000 chance to go 0-20 something on fungi tunics in 2-4 man groups. I just have to laugh at guys like Treats and Quizy because I can kill the king easily duo, I just can't beat the RNG [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still interested in hearing proposals for better end game systems. In the past, I have tried to comment on the ones I thought were good and still in the spirit of classic, non-instanced raiding.

If there was a perfect system in which raid targets spawned simultaneously within a certain window:

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

From what I've seen, raiding guilds on p99 have far greater numbers than were historically on my eqlive server. I would hate to make a system that somehow made things worse :T

Anyways, keep up the proposals. Hopefully something is suggested that supports more guilds getting targets without diminishing competition.

Not so much a solution to poopsocking, but more of a solution to offload "referee" burden from the guides/GMs:

Is there a compelling reason (except for "its not classic1!!1") why a zonewide shout by a raid mob indicating FTE and return to target seek mode could not be implemented? Then, the guides dont have to waste time trying to sort out what happened and transferring loot around, and no one can rules-lawyer FTE. Or even a death message that indicates who had FTE during the encounter that led to its death (although the preference would be knowing FTE at the beginning of the encounter so you can pull your raid force and let your opponent reap the consequence of their premature engage.)

[finalgrunt]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still interested in hearing proposals for better end game systems. In the past, I have tried to comment on the ones I thought were good and still in the spirit of classic, non-instanced raiding.

If there was a perfect system in which raid targets spawned simultaneously within a certain window:

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

From what I've seen, raiding guilds on p99 have far greater numbers than were historically on my eqlive server. I would hate to make a system that somehow made things worse :T

Anyways, keep up the proposals. Hopefully something is suggested that supports more guilds getting targets without diminishing competition.

Here is my proposal:

Facts:

- On many live servers, competition was never what it is here (ridiculously hardcore), because raiding playerbase was much smaller.
- On many live servers, there was a rotation going for many targets, and EQ was still considered a hard game which needed investment. Also because somehow back then, guild leaders knew about playing nice and fairplay.

Proposition

GMs from this server write down a list (which can be updated by them) of the bosses and give each of them one of the following status:

Status could be:

[Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation. Rules are:
- any guild can ask to pass a test to enter the rotation. Target will be spawned by a GM, no loot will be received from that event of course. GMs will decide if it's a number of attempts or amount of time required to "clear" the test.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Tiered Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation too but this time, it's left to the player base to come to an agreement which are the requirements to enter/leave the rotation.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights still have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Contested] which means open to race / competition on a FTE basis (see below).

FTE rule changed to:

Each guild appoints a raid leader who must now claim engagement. There will be 2 shouts from that person:

First one requires at least 10 members from guild/alliance to be in the target's zone: "<Guild Name> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Target>". It notifies any other guild that they are now part of the effective rotation.

"<Guild Name> is engaging the target now!" which announces for a FTE claim.

From this point, the guild must engage under a minute.
If the guild engages under a minute and kills the target, grats. If it's a wipe, other guilds can claim engagement, as long as they also engage under a minute and the target is back to full health when they do so.
If a guild fails to engage under a minute, it loses one turn and must wait for the next guild to claim FTE and do its attempt. This rule stops applying if 10 minutes have passed without an engage from any competiting guild.

Punishment
Failing the rules will result in a 15 days raid ban guild wise.

Variance
Will be removed.

Example 1 (overly complicated, to show the boundaries):

Gorenaire is set this month to [Contested] and spawns.
TMO races and are first in the zone. As long as no other guild / alliance shows up with 15 players, they can't claim to be on the rotation, and TMO may have as many attempts as they want.
BDA has got 15 players in the zone, and thei raid leader shouts:
"<BDA> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Gorenaire>".
From that moment, TMO raid leader or BDA leaders must now shout their respective engagements before going in.
Let's say TMO shouts for engage and fails again. There is still no restriction.
Divinity enters the raid scene, and shouts for rotation inclusion and are gathering their raid forces.
TMO thinks BDA is about to engage but they're not totally ready, so TMo shouts for engage, but can't engage immediatly. More than a minute passes with no engage from TMO, they lose their turn and can't engage. Either BDA or Divinity now have 10 minutes to claim their FTE, or TMO can go again. BDA engages but is wiping.
TMO claims again FTE before Divinity, as BDA is losing their members. TMO here gambles that BDA will have wiped and Gorenaire will be back to full health under a minute.
BDA tanks & healers heroicly survive more than a minute, and TMO lost it's gamble, the "lost turn or 10 minutes" rule applies again.
Divinity claims FTE after 5 minutes, and kills the target.

Example 2:

Venril Sathir is set this month to [Rotation] and spawns. BDA is the guild which has got engage rights. BDA takes some time to gather and buff, and do their first attempt after 45 minutes. The hour mark is hit, and BDA is not ready to go again. TMO shouts for rotation inclusion, and immediatly shouts again for FTE. They wipe. As BDA is about to shouts for FTE, TMO shouts for FTE again as they rush back to the room. They are allowed to so since they engaged under a minute the previous attempt, and kill it.

If the logic here is flawed lemme know.

Why would this be good?
It's easily monitored by players themselves, and GMs won't have to watch if they don't want to. It allows for competition and casual friendly environment. Like on live, mind you.
Also this system is very flexible (easily customized) to reflect what the GMs/devs want to do with their server by putting the status they want, what tests must be passed, and how much they'll have to manage the rotations (them or the player base).

[Callnoutthenewbs]

Originally Posted by finalgrunt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is my proposal:

Facts:

- On many live servers, competition was never what it is here (ridiculously hardcore), because raiding playerbase was much smaller.
- On many live servers, there was a rotation going for many targets, and EQ was still considered a hard game which needed investment. Also because somehow back then, guild leaders knew about playing nice and fairplay.

Proposition

GMs from this server write down a list (which can be updated by them) of the bosses and give each of them one of the following status:

Status could be:

[Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation. Rules are:
- any guild can ask to pass a test to enter the rotation. Target will be spawned by a GM, no loot will be received from that event of course. GMs will decide if it's a number of attempts or amount of time required to "clear" the test.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Tiered Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation too but this time, it's left to the player base to come to an agreement which are the requirements to enter/leave the rotation.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights still have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Contested] which means open to race / competition on a FTE basis (see below).

FTE rule changed to:

Each guild appoints a raid leader who must now claim engagement. There will be 2 shouts from that person:

First one requires at least 10 members from guild/alliance to be in the target's zone: "<Guild Name> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Target>". It notifies any other guild that they are now part of the effective rotation.

"<Guild Name> is engaging the target now!" which announces for a FTE claim.

From this point, the guild must engage under a minute.
If the guild engages under a minute and kills the target, grats. If it's a wipe, other guilds can claim engagement, as long as they also engage under a minute and the target is back to full health when they do so.
If a guild fails to engage under a minute, it loses one turn and must wait for the next guild to claim FTE and do its attempt. This rule stops applying if 10 minutes have passed without an engage from any competiting guild.

Killing a raid target even after failing the minute engagement will result in a 15 days raid ban guild wise.

Example 1:

Gorenaire is set this month to [Contested] and spawns.
TMO races and are first in the zone. As long as no other guild / alliance shows up with 15 players, they can't claim to be on the rotation, and TMO may have as many attempts as they want.
BDA has got 15 players in the zone, and thei raid leader shouts:
"<BDA> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Gorenaire>".
From that moment, TMO raid leader or BDA leaders must now shout their respective engagements before going in.
Let's say TMO shouts for engage and fails again. There is still no restriction.
Divinity enters the raid scene, and shouts for rotation inclusion and are gathering their raid forces.
TMO thinks BDA is about to engage but they're not totally ready, so TMo shouts for engage, but can't engage immediatly. More than a minute passes with no engage from TMO, they lose their turn and can't engage. Either BDA or Divinity now have 10 minutes to claim their FTE, or TMO can go again. BDA engages but is wiping.
TMO claims again FTE before Divinity, as BDA is losing their members. TMO here gambles that BDA will have wiped and Gorenaire will be back to full health under a minute.
BDA tanks & healers heroicly survive more than a minute, and TMO lost it's gamble, the "lost turn or 10 minutes" rule applies again.
Divinity claims FTE after 5 minutes, and kills the target.

Example 2:

Venril Sathir is set this month to [Rotation] and spawns. BDA is the guild which has got engage rights. BDA takes some time to gather and buff, and do their first attempt after 45 minutes. The hour mark is hit, and BDA is not ready to go again. TMO shouts for rotation inclusion, and immediatly shouts again for FTE. They wipe. As BDA is about to shouts for FTE, TMO shouts for FTE again as they rush back to the room. They are allowed to so since they engaged under a minute the previous attempt, and kill it.

If the logic here is flawed lemme know.

Why would this be good?
It's easily monitored by players themselves, and GMs won't have to watch if they don't want to. It allows for competition and casual friendly environment. Like on live, mind you.
Also this system is very flexible (easily customized) to reflect what the GMs/devs want to do with their server by putting the status they want, what tests must be passed, and how much they'll have to manage the rotations (them or the player base).

Read this and it just sounds like a headace to be honest.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by finalgrunt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is my proposal:

Facts:

- On many live servers, competition was never what it is here (ridiculously hardcore), because raiding playerbase was much smaller.
- On many live servers, there was a rotation going for many targets, and EQ was still considered a hard game which needed investment. Also because somehow back then, guild leaders knew about playing nice and fairplay.

Proposition

GMs from this server write down a list (which can be updated by them) of the bosses and give each of them one of the following status:

Status could be:

[Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation. Rules are:
- any guild can ask to pass a test to enter the rotation. Target will be spawned by a GM, no loot will be received from that event of course. GMs will decide if it's a number of attempts or amount of time required to "clear" the test.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Tiered Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation too but this time, it's left to the player base to come to an agreement which are the requirements to enter/leave the rotation.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights still have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Contested] which means open to race / competition on a FTE basis (see below).

FTE rule changed to:

Each guild appoints a raid leader who must now claim engagement. There will be 2 shouts from that person:

First one requires at least 10 members from guild/alliance to be in the target's zone: "<Guild Name> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Target>". It notifies any other guild that they are now part of the effective rotation.

"<Guild Name> is engaging the target now!" which announces for a FTE claim.

From this point, the guild must engage under a minute.
If the guild engages under a minute and kills the target, grats. If it's a wipe, other guilds can claim engagement, as long as they also engage under a minute and the target is back to full health when they do so.
If a guild fails to engage under a minute, it loses one turn and must wait for the next guild to claim FTE and do its attempt. This rule stops applying if 10 minutes have passed without an engage from any competiting guild.

Punishment
Failing the rules will result in a 15 days raid ban guild wise.

Variance
Will be removed.

Example 1 (overly complicated, to show the boundaries):

Gorenaire is set this month to [Contested] and spawns.
TMO races and are first in the zone. As long as no other guild / alliance shows up with 15 players, they can't claim to be on the rotation, and TMO may have as many attempts as they want.
BDA has got 15 players in the zone, and thei raid leader shouts:
"<BDA> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Gorenaire>".
From that moment, TMO raid leader or BDA leaders must now shout their respective engagements before going in.
Let's say TMO shouts for engage and fails again. There is still no restriction.
Divinity enters the raid scene, and shouts for rotation inclusion and are gathering their raid forces.
TMO thinks BDA is about to engage but they're not totally ready, so TMo shouts for engage, but can't engage immediatly. More than a minute passes with no engage from TMO, they lose their turn and can't engage. Either BDA or Divinity now have 10 minutes to claim their FTE, or TMO can go again. BDA engages but is wiping.
TMO claims again FTE before Divinity, as BDA is losing their members. TMO here gambles that BDA will have wiped and Gorenaire will be back to full health under a minute.
BDA tanks & healers heroicly survive more than a minute, and TMO lost it's gamble, the "lost turn or 10 minutes" rule applies again.
Divinity claims FTE after 5 minutes, and kills the target.

Example 2:

Venril Sathir is set this month to [Rotation] and spawns. BDA is the guild which has got engage rights. BDA takes some time to gather and buff, and do their first attempt after 45 minutes. The hour mark is hit, and BDA is not ready to go again. TMO shouts for rotation inclusion, and immediatly shouts again for FTE. They wipe. As BDA is about to shouts for FTE, TMO shouts for FTE again as they rush back to the room. They are allowed to so since they engaged under a minute the previous attempt, and kill it.

If the logic here is flawed lemme know.

Why would this be good?
It's easily monitored by players themselves, and GMs won't have to watch if they don't want to. It allows for competition and casual friendly environment. Like on live, mind you.
Also this system is very flexible (easily customized) to reflect what the GMs/devs want to do with their server by putting the status they want, what tests must be passed, and how much they'll have to manage the rotations (them or the player base).

You obviously put a lot of thought into this and that is to be respected, but this would kill guilds and kill community. Most of the targets can be killed woth sgnificantly less numbers than tmo or bda bring to raids. This would cause large communities of friends to splinter into smaller guilds. Ill type a more detailed and cogent response when I get home

[HarrisonStillPosting]

Originally Posted by finalgrunt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is my proposal:

Facts:

- On many live servers, competition was never what it is here (ridiculously hardcore), because raiding playerbase was much smaller.
- On many live servers, there was a rotation going for many targets, and EQ was still considered a hard game which needed investment. Also because somehow back then, guild leaders knew about playing nice and fairplay.

Proposition

GMs from this server write down a list (which can be updated by them) of the bosses and give each of them one of the following status:

Status could be:

[Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation. Rules are:
- any guild can ask to pass a test to enter the rotation. Target will be spawned by a GM, no loot will be received from that event of course. GMs will decide if it's a number of attempts or amount of time required to "clear" the test.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Tiered Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation too but this time, it's left to the player base to come to an agreement which are the requirements to enter/leave the rotation.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights still have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Contested] which means open to race / competition on a FTE basis (see below).

FTE rule changed to:

Each guild appoints a raid leader who must now claim engagement. There will be 2 shouts from that person:

First one requires at least 10 members from guild/alliance to be in the target's zone: "<Guild Name> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Target>". It notifies any other guild that they are now part of the effective rotation.

"<Guild Name> is engaging the target now!" which announces for a FTE claim.

From this point, the guild must engage under a minute.
If the guild engages under a minute and kills the target, grats. If it's a wipe, other guilds can claim engagement, as long as they also engage under a minute and the target is back to full health when they do so.
If a guild fails to engage under a minute, it loses one turn and must wait for the next guild to claim FTE and do its attempt. This rule stops applying if 10 minutes have passed without an engage from any competiting guild.

Punishment
Failing the rules will result in a 15 days raid ban guild wise.

Variance
Will be removed.

Example 1 (overly complicated, to show the boundaries):

Gorenaire is set this month to [Contested] and spawns.
TMO races and are first in the zone. As long as no other guild / alliance shows up with 15 players, they can't claim to be on the rotation, and TMO may have as many attempts as they want.
BDA has got 15 players in the zone, and thei raid leader shouts:
"<BDA> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Gorenaire>".
From that moment, TMO raid leader or BDA leaders must now shout their respective engagements before going in.
Let's say TMO shouts for engage and fails again. There is still no restriction.
Divinity enters the raid scene, and shouts for rotation inclusion and are gathering their raid forces.
TMO thinks BDA is about to engage but they're not totally ready, so TMo shouts for engage, but can't engage immediatly. More than a minute passes with no engage from TMO, they lose their turn and can't engage. Either BDA or Divinity now have 10 minutes to claim their FTE, or TMO can go again. BDA engages but is wiping.
TMO claims again FTE before Divinity, as BDA is losing their members. TMO here gambles that BDA will have wiped and Gorenaire will be back to full health under a minute.
BDA tanks & healers heroicly survive more than a minute, and TMO lost it's gamble, the "lost turn or 10 minutes" rule applies again.
Divinity claims FTE after 5 minutes, and kills the target.

Example 2:

Venril Sathir is set this month to [Rotation] and spawns. BDA is the guild which has got engage rights. BDA takes some time to gather and buff, and do their first attempt after 45 minutes. The hour mark is hit, and BDA is not ready to go again. TMO shouts for rotation inclusion, and immediatly shouts again for FTE. They wipe. As BDA is about to shouts for FTE, TMO shouts for FTE again as they rush back to the room. They are allowed to so since they engaged under a minute the previous attempt, and kill it.

If the logic here is flawed lemme know.

Why would this be good?
It's easily monitored by players themselves, and GMs won't have to watch if they don't want to. It allows for competition and casual friendly environment. Like on live, mind you.
Also this system is very flexible (easily customized) to reflect what the GMs/devs want to do with their server by putting the status they want, what tests must be passed, and how much they'll have to manage the rotations (them or the player base).

This makes sense but the punishment needs to be extreme. TMO are massive repeat offenders, multiple raid suspensions, training, exploiting, etc.

15 day raid suspension is weak.

[Joroz]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still interested in hearing proposals for better end game systems. In the past, I have tried to comment on the ones I thought were good and still in the spirit of classic, non-instanced raiding.

The solution to fixing the endgame is pretty simple. Lay down real punishments when people break the rules instead of sudo bans that get ninja lifted. Or remove the special rules for raids since it just hurts only those that try to follow them.

[HarrisonIsStillPosting]

Originally Posted by Joroz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The solution to fixing the endgame is pretty simple. Lay down real punishments when people break the rules instead of sudo bans that get ninja lifted. Or remove the special rules for raids since it just hurts only those that try to follow them.

This.

When TMO pulls mobs through walls for hours in front of Amelinda, ban them. They are repeat offenders.

Don't turn VP(the endgame currently) into a trainfest because you don't have the manpower to police it. Ban them for training. They will stop if you actually punish people for once and not limpwrist them with a 2 week raid suspension that gets lifted early in secrecy.