Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[TripSin]

The people crying about Enchanters being "nonclassic" are just absolutely ignorant and obviously did not play enchanter back in the day because it really isn't that much weaker or stronger than it used to be. I'm talking about before AAs and all that other junk which made it even stronger. People just use it more now. You want to nerf it just because people use it more now than they did back in the day? That's seems pretty stupid imo.

[sentinel]

To my knowledge, p99 (and other EQ emulators) use educated guesses for all mechanics. What's wrong with discussing whether or not this one mechanic is accurate?

I get that EQ knowledge has increased as have faster, more stable internet connections. And many folks want the conversation to end there (and they are mad!). But what I'm interested in knowing is where the p99 mechanics came from -- how did they arrive at the resist checks and what not they currently use?

[jacob54311]

Originally Posted by sentinel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To my knowledge, p99 (and other EQ emulators) use educated guesses for all mechanics. What's wrong with discussing whether or not this one mechanic is accurate?

I get that EQ knowledge has increased as have faster, more stable internet connections. And many folks want the conversation to end there (and they are mad!). But what I'm interested in knowing is where the p99 mechanics came from -- how did they arrive at the resist checks and what not they currently use?

Have they ever even hinted at that "under the hood" stuff?

Can't blame them if they haven't. If they started explaining the mechanics of the game it would just throw fuel onto the fire of threads like these while opening themselves up to more criticism.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by jacob54311 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have they ever even hinted at that "under the hood" stuff?

Can't blame them if they haven't. If they started explaining the mechanics of the game it would just throw fuel onto the fire of threads like these while opening themselves up to more criticism.

Yeah, it probably would. Again, I doubt anything gets changed regarding charm, but it is interesting to see how/why they made the server the way it is. It is a custom job, after all.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Originally Posted by sentinel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To my knowledge, p99 (and other EQ emulators) use educated guesses for all mechanics. What's wrong with discussing whether or not this one mechanic is accurate?

I get that EQ knowledge has increased as have faster, more stable internet connections. And many folks want the conversation to end there (and they are mad!). But what I'm interested in knowing is where the p99 mechanics came from -- how did they arrive at the resist checks and what not they currently use?

And it's interesting:. Enchanter Charm is really the only thing people are complaining about right now, in terms of class mechanics.

Theres currently no other spell/spells that people have identified as not being "classically spirited." Yet it is being complained about, and quite frequently so, meaning there is a standout level of class-power that MANY people have identified. This has been surmised for YEARS now.

The launch of Green/Teal has only cemented this suspicion as we're now witnessing completely ungeared Enchanters Charming with nearly the same efficacy of a 255CHA Chanter on Blue.

Anecdotally speaking, I just watched a lvl 18 Chanter sit in the CB Throne Room last night Charm soloing. He had an Orc Emissary charmed and it lasted effectively the FULLEST duration EVERY TIME he charmed it.

So the defensive arguments are as follows:


1) it was always like this, just nobody in the first two to three YEARS of EverQuest figured it out.
2) it was always like this, just nobody in the first two to three YEARS of EverQuest was "skilled enough" to pull it off
3) it was always like this, just nobody in the first two to three YEARS of EverQuest discussed their discovery of this extremely overpowered mechanic

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Vizax_Xaziv [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And it's interesting:. Enchanter Charm is really the only thing people are complaining about right now, in terms of class mechanics.

Theres currently no other spell/spells that people have identified as not being "classically spirited." Yet it is being complained about, and quite frequently so, meaning there is a standout level of class-power that MANY people have identified. This has been surmised for YEARS now.

The launch of Green/Teal has only cemented this suspicion as we're now witnessing completely ungeared Enchanters Charming with nearly the same efficacy of a 255CHA Chanter on Blue.

Anecdotally speaking, I just watched a lvl 18 Chanter sit in the CB Throne Room last night Charm soloing. He had an Orc Emissary charmed and it lasted effectively the FULLEST duration EVERY TIME he charmed it.

So the defensive arguments are as follows:


1) it was always like this, just nobody in the first two to three YEARS of EverQuest figured it out.
2) it was always like this, just nobody in the first two to three YEARS of EverQuest was "skilled enough" to pull it off
3) it was always like this, just nobody in the first two to three YEARS of EverQuest discussed their discovery of this extremely overpowered mechanic

Yeah, you're right it's interesting that the tests posted in the Bugs thread seem to indicate that CHA doesn't have significant effect on Charm duration, which would seem to mean that someone ungeared on Green could potentially have similar Charm durations to someone with 255 CHA. Guess we resolved that one. Thanks for stopping by!

[vossiewulf]

I still have no intention of playing an Enchanter, so still in the end I have no skin in the game whichever way it goes, but it made me curious as to whether I'm remembering accurately.

Earliest snapshot I could find of EQ Caster's Realm was November 7 1999, and yeah that's what I remember, enchanters being excited to charm mobs 6 levels below theirs for four minutes. I poked around a bit, first mentions I see of consistently using charmed mobs as a replacement pet of DB stature start around the time of Kunark. Not sure if it was items or spell changes that pushed out the duration, but something must have. As per the comments below, and this is what I remember from the early months, was that it was possible to charm a DB mob but with a short end on the duration being possibly shorter than a single pull, it was a no-go for groups.

Also the comments show it was known how to break charm at a time of the caster's choosing.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010108...asp?SpellID=43

Spell description:

This spell charms the target and turns it into a pet of the caster. Normal pet commands will work on this pet, unlike animations. Note that when the charm breaks, the formerly charmed creature will be extremely aggressive towards the caster. Many tactics for Enchanters involve the use of this spell, which has been responsible for both incredible victories and abject defeats. Use with awareness of the randomness of the spell's duration.

Comments:

Careful with this one - Mecha Spectre
The duration is unstable, but it's always reliable in one way -- It's short. It won't last long. And then you'll have two things to fight. It's also fairly hard to charm ... well, anything white or above, from my experience. They break out of it alot faster, as well.

Extending Charm duration -
Hi, I did a little research involving Orc Centurions in GFay to find out about the duration of this spell. That time I was lvl 12 or 13, I do not remember. My charisma is 115. This seems to be important for success as well as duration. Anyway, I did quite extensive experiments with about 15 to 20 orc cents. in all cases, the spell lasted around 30 seconds to 1 minute. But in the cases where I used Tashan first, the shortest duration I had was more than 4.5 minutes! One was well over 8 minutes, if I remember correctly. You should be aware that with higher lvl opponents, like the Nybright sisters, the effect of Tashan is still quite obvious, but of course the duration is not as good. With them, I had duration times of about 2 to 5 minutes, while without Tashan they break the charm almost instantly (less than 30 seconds in most cases). One last comment: This whole thing was about a month ago, and it can very well have changed since then. Anyway, perhaps this helps. I didn't see it in the comments on this spell. Nagisa

The duration isint really random - Asmodan
charm is based on the resistance of the creature but any creature will break free eventually so i guess the testing agianst the charm gets stronger the longer it is. my suggestion is charm griffawns you can use green griffawns to kill red crag spiders and the griffawn dies from poison so remember to cast taishan before charm[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Easy pet release for dark elves - Nincarnas
It's easy to release your charmed pet when *you* want with a dark elf - you just need to hide, which is one of the dark elves natural abilities. To give yourself more time for whatever you wish to do with your former pet, make it sit down first (/pet sit down) and move away from it.

Pet release for non-Dark Elves. - Miria
Invisable will also release a charmed creature. Useful when you want to use charm to just to move the creature to a more suitable area to fight.

[kul69]

1. Tashan should resist. Proof was already provided. It shouldn't be a lure.
2. Pets should take experience from groups if they do the most damage.

Two changes that need to happen and were proven. As mentioned above tashan is required to get any meaningful duration out of charm but on P99 it is unresistable making pulling with tashan and charm an easy win combo. If you pulled with tashan and it got resisted somewhat regularly that is significantly more challenging as it also prevents reliable charming until landed.

Groups likely didn't use pets like Osargen in HHK because they would take the experience. This explains why everyone enchanter didn't run around with charmed backstabbing pets like we see on P99. It actually killed experience same as soloing with a charmed pet and letting it get kills.

Also didn't it say 75% of experience is taken and not 50% if a pet gets highest damage?

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Groups likely didn't use pets like Osargen in HHK because they would take the experience. This explains why everyone enchanter didn't run around with charmed backstabbing pets like we see on P99. It actually killed experience same as soloing with a charmed pet and letting it get kills.

Didn't you previously say noone used charm because it was unreliable?

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's getting kind of ridiculous and sad seeing this happen again. Enchanters were not this OP in classic. Charm happened in classic and it broke within 10 seconds most of the time and that is why no one ever used it in groups regularly

Now it didn't get used because the pets took xp?

I'm trying to keep up with all this fast-paced crying, its not easy.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. Pets should take experience from groups if they do the most damage.

Groups likely didn't use pets like Osargen in HHK because they would take the experience. This explains why everyone enchanter didn't run around with charmed backstabbing pets like we see on P99. It actually killed experience same as soloing with a charmed pet and letting it get kills.

Also didn't it say 75% of experience is taken and not 50% if a pet gets highest damage?

Actually, you're misstating this. Based on the lats information posted in the bug thread, pets only took EXP if they outdamaged the entire group in the aggregate. So if you had a pet in the group, and it does 100 total damage to the mob, but the total damage done by all players taken together is 110, the pet gets no exp.

Each pet was also treated as an individual group member, so if fore example you have two pets in the group who each do 60 damage and the total damage done by the players in the group taken together is 100, the pets get no exp even though together they did more damage than the players did.

A single pet has to outdamage the entire group. This is why you eventually saw people not needing to get rid of their pets in groups, because it was discovered that (i) it's sometimes pretty hard for a single pet, even a charmed mob (with some exceptions), to out-DPS an entire group if people are being active and damaging the mob, and (ii) the more pets you have the better since it then makes it harder for a single pet to do more damage than the entire group as a whole.

So I think we can put this whole pet argument to bed with respect to Charming, since it's simply not accurate.