ASOIAF / Game of Thrones (SPOILERS INSIDE)

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Dalven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol Sirken, let me see if I can keep up with that flurry.
That passage you quoted is an interesting one for a lot of reasons - one must be the Hound, he has had an impact on both the Stark girls' life. A figure armoured like the sun leads me to think of Jaime and his golden armour

or maybe a Martell? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Dalven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Howland Reed holds the key to R+L=J for sure but which PoV will get to him first? No one is near him at the minute so I reckon it'll be book seven before we see him.

could give a PoV chapter to him? aside from that i could see davos, Asha, or Theon all having a chance to hit Greywater Watch as they are in the general vicinity.

Originally Posted by Dalven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You make a lot of good points. This knot gets more interesting as Dany is clearly being set up to be the obvious candidate but as has been shown people have misinterpreted that prophecy before. Melisandre's vision even specifically mentions Jon in ADWD during her POV chapter when she thinks of Azor Ahai. Jon is now in a position where he can be reborn and we can't really predict how this is going to happen at the moment, or what he is going to be like when he comes back. What do we know about the Prince that was Promised prophecy? I can't recall getting even a fable version like we got from Salladhor San about AA. Aegon is definitely a fake - I'm fond of the theory that he is Illyrio's son by his Blackfyre wife, but regardless of the truth of that nuance I'm certain he's a Blackfyre. Too much of the Blackfyre rebellion has been talked about in the Dunk and Egg novellas for it not to have an impact on the main story (btw has anyone read the new short story yet? Have got a copy of Dangerous Women but haven't read it yet - apparently a history of the first Dance of Dragons.) Back on point - does anyone in Westeros know about Azor Ahai? Does Dany? Did Aemon? Although I think Moqorro is about to enlighten her - does this validate her as AA or are Red Priests just dumb all round?

Dany=PTWP & Jon=AA ignore anything i said that contradicts that.

as far as PTWP infos, he song of ice and fire is said to be the prince that was promised's but the content remains unknown. the song of ice and fire is a subject of a prophecy and is eponymous for the A Song of Ice and Fire series.

At the House of the Undying, Daenerys Targaryen sees a man (Rhaegar Targaryen) and overhears him talking to a woman (Elia Martell) nursing a baby. "Aegon… What better name for a king… He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"; When Rhaegar's eyes meet Daenerys's, he says either to her or Elia, "There must be one more… The dragon has three heads", and he picks up a silver harp and begins to play.

However, neither Daenerys nor Ser Jorah Mormont know what the song of ice and fire means. It is implied that there is a connection between the song, the promise, and Daenerys herself. This is established more clearly when Maester Aemon identifies Daenerys as the "prince" that was promised.

The phrase "ice and fire" is also mentioned in the Reeds' oath of loyalty to Bran Stark. The phrase "ice and fire" appears two more times in the books as an example of opposites. However, the song and the promise are never mentioned again, and the song itself remains a mystery.

personally i think the two horns (the dragon horn (fire) that Vic has, and the northern horn (ice) sam has) will play the song of ice and fire. and i think it will involve Dany and Jon, as well as whitewalkers and dragons.

as far as melisandre, i think shes the least capable red priest we've encountered, with Thoros being better than her, and Moqurro being #2 of the order, should be better than Thoros

and yes some people in westeros do know of AA, but not enough. it feels limited to Maesters, historians, and nerds like Sam that are balls deep in the old books. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Sidelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the prophesies from the Undying Ones refers to "A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow raises a red sword in his hand." Gendry has blue eyes. Jon Snow's are grey.

I honestly can't remember if anyone else has talked about the Gendry theory in this thread...

ill have more for u later, but i wanted to hit on this, like his brothers, Robert and Renly, Stannis is a large man. hes tall, broad shouldered and sinewy. While he is not described as being particularly unattractive, he is also not considered as handsome as Renly or Robert was in his youth. Stannis has dark blue eyes. His head has only a fringe of black hair "like the shadow of a crown," and a close-cropped beard across his large jaw. His face has a tightness to it like cured leather, and he has hollow cheeks. He has thin, pale lips.

The red sword would seem to be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and the blue-eyed king without a shadow would then be Stannis Baratheon whose shadow has been so recently harnessed by Melisandre's sorcery to murder Renly Baratheon and Ser Cortnay Penrose. no i dont think stannis is AA, i just think thats who she saw in that vision.

edit- happy 5000th post

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Sidelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm starting to wonder if Gendry will turn out to be Azor Ahai and Dany will be his Nissa Nissa. I wasn't too sure about your Dany/sacrifice theory, Sirken, but some of the clues might just fit. I spent some time today reading both the Lightbringer Prophecy and the chapter in ACoK with Dany in the House of the Undying Ones. Here are a few simple observations:

Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer himself. Gendry is a skilled blacksmith. He makes the steel "sing". But doesn't it seem likely that when AA comes again he would need to have smithing skill?

I honestly can't remember if anyone else has talked about the Gendry theory in this thread...

i personally think Gendry will play a role in reconstructing Ice, as it was his blacksmith master that broke it down into Oathkeeper and WidowsWail (or whatever joffreys sword was named. remember its very very rare to find a blacksmith that can rework with valaryian steel

i also think Gendry will be the lord of house baratheon, and that Gendry and Arya will hook up, FINALLY uniting the Baratheons and the Starks (third time the charm)

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Sidelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just realized I am assuming too much about Lightbringer here. Does it still exist somewhere? I need to read more. My thoughts on Gendry might make more sense if he actually had to forge the sword. Lol. Taking off tinfoil hat for now. Bedtime. It's been fun.

ohh Lightbringer. theres a lot of theories on this, including that Lightbringer is actually the Nights Watch because of their oath

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Lightbringer is supposed to give off heat; the Night's Watch burns against the cold. It is the "light that brings the dawn." The original defeat of the Others is called the Battle for the Dawn. Could this mean that Lightbringer has been staring us in the face practically the entire time? The Azor Ahai legend and the origin of the Night's Watch are, we're led to believe, roughly contemporary. Azor Ahai's legend has to do with defeating the Others, which is also the Night's Watch's mission. As such, the AA legend and the Night's Watch are inexorably linked. The "wielder of Lightbringer" might simply mean the person who commands the Night's Watch. For all we know, AA might himself have been the founding Lord Commander. It also occurred to me that AA's sacrifice of Nissa Nissa might somehow tie into the Night's Watch promise to not take wives. We understand that promise to simply be putting duty before familial loyalty, but what if there's more to it? If AA did sacrifice Nissa Nissa to "forge" Lightbringer, and the Night's Watch is itself Lightbringer, then the rule against taking wives literally goes back to the first days of the Watch and has a deep symbolic meaning beyond just utility.

and then you have the dragon horn, "... a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword." Euron Crow's Eye supposedly got his dragon horn from the flames of Valyria in the remnants of the Doom. "To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered." (whether AA did this or not) that it requires human sacrifice, and that no animal/creature may be replaced. Remember that the blower of Euron's Valyrian Horn must die.

then u have Dawn. Dawn is the ancestral greatsword of House Dayne, who bestow the title Sword of the Morning on the sword's bearer. It is said to be made from metal forged from the heart of a fallen star. Its blade is as pale as milkglass. The name of the Daynes' castle, Starfall, and their arms, featuring a white sword and falling star, both reference Dawn. The blade is said to be just as sharp as Valyrian steel but where that is dark, the blade of Dawn is milky white. The last known user of the sword was Ser Arthur Dayne, who died at the Tower of Joy. After the fight, Eddard Stark rode to Starfall to deliver Dawn to Arthur's sister Ashara Dayne. Dawn is said to be "alive with lite". Dawn is mentioned in every book, yet we've never seen it. Dawn is only given to those worthy enough to wield it, and is not automatically passed down from one generation to the next. And when you mix all that together, i think it means Dawn is important, and has a role. could that role be Lightbringer, i dont know, but i think we cant rule out the possibility. we KNOW stannis' sword is fake, and simply a glamor she put on the sword similar to thoros sword at the iron isle invasion, and then Aemon points out stannis' sword was not hot, and lightbringer radiates heat. Dawn is not burning out either, but maybe it could when AA wields it, and the Daynes are the custodians of lightbringer.

if Lightbringer is an actual sword, i think it will be Dawn (fun fact, if Jon Snow is AA, and if LB=Dawn, then it means Lightbringer was right there when AA was born if R+L=J)

if Lightbringer is not an actual sword, i think it is a metaphor for the nightswatch, and i think that the lord commander could be AA. we also know that the battle for the dawn was against the others, that common foe of the nights watch.

[Mandalore93]

Ok, so in chapter twenty. An Eddard point of view, take note of the description that is used when he sees Varys. Seems extremely familiar to how the members of the house of undying are described.

[Sirken]

book 1 chapter 20 (Eddard), only says this about Varys -

the councilor Ned liked least, the eunuch Varys, accosted him the moment he entered. "Lord Stark, i was grievous sad to hear about your troubles on the Kingsroad. We have all been visiting the sept to light candles for Prince Joffrey. I pray for his recovery." His hand left powder stains on Ned's sleeve, and he smelled as foul and sweet as flowers on a grave.

moreover, Varys is never described as having the blue lips that serves as the trade mark sign for the members of the house of the undying (they get this from drinking the shade of the evening). The only people we're told have been drinking it are the Warlocks, Pyat Pree, Daenerys Targaryen (only once), Euron Greyjoy, Victarion Greyjoy (tries a small swallow and spits it out immediately).

and then, Varys despises magic, but especially dark magic. heres his history

Though nothing that Varys says can be completely trusted, he claims to have been born a slave in Lys that was sold and apprenticed to a traveling folly, a troupe of mummers who worked the Free Cities, Oldtown, and occasionally King's Landing, by means of a fat little cog owned by the troupe's master. During their stay in Myr, a man offered a large sum of money for Varys, an offer his master found too tempting to refuse. The man gave Varys a potion that made him powerless to move or speak, but did nothing to dull his senses as his manhood was cut off at the stem, then burnt in a brazier in a Blood Magic ritual. Varys claims to have held a hatred for all things magical ever since.

With the ritual complete, the man had no further use for Varys and tossed him out on the streets. Varys asked the man what he should do, to which the sorcerer replied he supposed that he should die. Varys to spite him vowed to live.

By that time the mummers had sailed and Varys was left alone. He resorted to begging, prostitution and thievery and soon was as good a thief as any in Myr, eventually becoming recognized as the best thief in the city until a rival forced him out and he fled to Pentos.

In Pentos, Varys befriended a poor sellsword named Illyrio Mopatis and they started a business where Varys would steal objects from lesser thieves and Illyrio would get the objects back for their original owners for a small fee. Soon, every man and woman in Pentos who ever had valuables stolen from them all knew who to ask to get their valuables back. In addition, the thieves in Pentos soon began to seek Illyrio and Varys out, half to try (and failing) to kill them, the other half to sell them the objects they stole in order to prevent Varys from stealing them back. Varys and Illyrio grew very rich.

Varys came to the realization that information was much more valuable than gold and gems and began training his spy network, then known as "little mice", to acquire the information, letters, ledgers and charts of the wealthy and powerful. The "mice" were orphans purchased by Varys; he chose those that were small, quick, and quiet, and taught them to read and write, as well as the skills required for sneak thievery such as climbing walls and slipping down chimneys, so that they might copy the information Varys desired without disturbing or alarming their targets.

These secrets increased Varys and Illyrio's wealth tenfold, and in time Varys became so infamous that word of his talents reached the ears of King Aerys across the Narrow Sea, who in his growing paranoia no longer trusted his son, his wife, or his Hand.

and then we also know Varys likes disguises,

Varys employs the use of various disguises to go about unnoticed. Upon seeing one of the disguises Tyrion remarks, "A different look, a different smell, a different way of walking ... most men would be deceived".
As a stout man in a heavy brown robe in roughspun - in cracked, mud-caked boots smelling of sweat. His face hidden by a cowl, hands drawn up into voluminous sleeves. At first he speaks in a strange low voice. Ned is astonished to realize it is Lord Varys. Ned notices his usual cloying tones are gone and his voice is a thin and sharp as a whip.

As a begging brother – in filthy patched robes, bare feet crusty with dirt, a bowl hung about his neck on a leather thong where a septon would have worn a crystal. The smell of him would have gagged a rat. He has a mouth full of rotted teeth.

As a woman – plump, soft, matronly, with a round pin moon of a face and heavy dark curls. For one horrid moment Tyrion thinks its Lollys.

As a dungeon turnkey named Rugen

Personally i dont think Varys is a warlock, nor do i think hes a member of the house of the undying. he lacks the blue lips / Shade of the evening connection.

[Mandalore93]

He could very well have a glamor on himself. And what better way to disguise himself with the story of his hatred.

Got to say, now that I'm re-reading (listening) I'm like super intensely focused on the smallest of details with my tinfoil hat on hardcore mode.

[Sidelle]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ill have more for u later, but i wanted to hit on this, like his brothers, Robert and Renly, Stannis is a large man. hes tall, broad shouldered and sinewy. While he is not described as being particularly unattractive, he is also not considered as handsome as Renly or Robert was in his youth. Stannis has dark blue eyes. His head has only a fringe of black hair "like the shadow of a crown," and a close-cropped beard across his large jaw. His face has a tightness to it like cured leather, and he has hollow cheeks. He has thin, pale lips.

The red sword would seem to be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and the blue-eyed king without a shadow would then be Stannis Baratheon whose shadow has been so recently harnessed by Melisandre's sorcery to murder Renly Baratheon and Ser Cortnay Penrose. no i dont think stannis is AA, i just think thats who she saw in that vision.

edit- happy 5000th post

About the king who casts no shadow. One reason why I'm thinking this might be Gendry: when I think of the meaning of the words "casts no shadow" I am thinking they're referring to a person who doesn't seem important; someone unknown and unexpected who is already hidden in the shadows, and therefore will cast none.

Also, AA will pull the sword from the fire. I just took that to mean he will forge it.

Anyway, I understand my thinking is more literal but metaphors make me go insane. ("Omg what does THAT MEAN!?!?" - followed by a seizure and foaming at the mouth.)

Some of your metaphorical interpretation of the Night's Watch possibly being Lightbringer is very intriguing. I'll be thinking about it and might post more about that later (after the seizure).

Goddamn GRRM. So many theories and possible outcomes, thinking about them all is enough to make a person insane so I have to take little breaks . Lol.

[Sidelle]

Originally Posted by Mandalore93 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Got to say, now that I'm re-reading (listening) I'm like super intensely focused on the smallest of details with my tinfoil hat on hardcore mode.

Oh me too, for sure.. I'm poring over every word, looking for clues. Only take off the hat when it starts to pinch my head. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Dalven]

Lol, my forum questing is too casual to keep up with this. Brace yourselves for a long assed post.

Originally Posted by Sidelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm starting to wonder if Gendry will turn out to be Azor Ahai and Dany will be his Nissa Nissa. I wasn't too sure about your Dany/sacrifice theory, Sirken, but some of the clues might just fit. I spent some time today reading both the Lightbringer Prophecy and the chapter in ACoK with Dany in the House of the Undying Ones. Here are a few simple observations:

Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer himself. Gendry is a skilled blacksmith. He makes the steel "sing". (Btw, couldn't the sound Lightbringer would make during forging be what's behind the title: A Song of Ice and Fire? Maybe I'm reaching a little, will have to think more about this..) But doesn't it seem likely that when AA comes again he would need to have smithing skill?

One of the prophesies from the Undying Ones refers to "A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow raises a red sword in his hand." Gendry has blue eyes. Jon Snow's are grey.

I honestly can't remember if anyone else has talked about the Gendry theory in this thread...

I had more to post about Aegon and Dany but I gotta run for now. Let me know if you wanna discuss anything else from the House of the Undying Ones later.

Hey pal! Personally I'm in agreement with Sirken about Gendry - will most likely end up continuing the Baratheon line in some form or another. Also being in with Stoneheart's crew means he'll be keeping some bad ass company at the moment.

With regards to the blue eyed king part of the prophecy I had thought this was a reference to Stannis; the lack of shadows referring to the "shadow babies" he's had out killing Renly and Penrose and the red sword referring to his false Lightbringer. Prophecies from the House of the Undying seem to pan out, on a reread catching the detail about Dany seeing a bloody corpse with a wolf's head was a nice tip to the Red Wedding.

Originally Posted by Sidelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

About Aegon. I just have this feeling that he's legit and that would make him the prince that was promised. When Dany was in the House of the Undying she saw a scene with Rhaegar and his wife, right after Aegon was born. He definitely proclaims his newborn son the prince that was promised.

...

As for Melisadre thinking maybe Jon is possibly Azor Ahai: I dunno. She seems like too much of a charlatan to me, even if she does get some of her predictions right. Plus, I don't think it's Jon because of the subtle clues; like him having the wrong eye color, for one.

Fair enough, but like I saide before I'm all in with Aegon being a Blackfyre [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Rhaegar himself was prematurely/wrongly thought to be the PtwP so the Targaryen's have been known to jump the gun with these declarations. The fact that he went with Lyanna perhaps meant that Rhaegar himself later had his doubts and realised the Ice was missing, or was merely seeking the third head due to Elia's sickly state.

As far as Melisandre goes she doesn't think she's a charlaton but as we glean from her PoV she is actually a lot less confident in her interpretations than she lets on but pushes on for the sake of the cause. She doesn't even click that Jon could be AA - she even wonders about the fact that when she tries to call up visions of AA she keeps seeing Jon's face.

Originally Posted by Sidelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I forgot to mention Maester Aemon saying Dany is the PtwP. At best, it just seemed like he was speculating and wasn't fully coherant (?) while he was on his death bed. That's just my take on it.

Aegon has been wrong about this before, but Dany is certainly a better candidate than Rhaegor was.

Originally Posted by Sidelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just realized I am assuming too much about Lightbringer here. Does it still exist somewhere? I need to read more. My thoughts on Gendry might make more sense if he actually had to forge the sword. Lol. Taking off tinfoil hat for now. Bedtime. It's been fun.

The theory on Dawn is pretty cool and fits in with Salladhor's version of the AA story.

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

or maybe a Martell? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The thought did cross my mind but I couldn't see how the Martell's have impacted the Stark girls yet. Can still happen tho!

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

could give a PoV chapter to him? aside from that i could see davos, Asha, or Theon all having a chance to hit Greywater Watch as they are in the general vicinity.

Would certainly have to be the latter half of book 6 - Theon and Asha are up in Winterfell and I think its implied Davos is going to Skagos to try and retrieve Rickon. Of course once that Wall comes down there's gonna be a pretty quick exodus south for a lot of characters lol.

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

as far as PTWP infos, he song of ice and fire is said to be the prince that was promised's but the content remains unknown. the song of ice and fire is a subject of a prophecy and is eponymous for the A Song of Ice and Fire series.

At the House of the Undying, Daenerys Targaryen sees a man (Rhaegar Targaryen) and overhears him talking to a woman (Elia Martell) nursing a baby. "Aegon… What better name for a king… He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"; When Rhaegar's eyes meet Daenerys's, he says either to her or Elia, "There must be one more… The dragon has three heads", and he picks up a silver harp and begins to play.

However, neither Daenerys nor Ser Jorah Mormont know what the song of ice and fire means. It is implied that there is a connection between the song, the promise, and Daenerys herself. This is established more clearly when Maester Aemon identifies Daenerys as the "prince" that was promised.

The phrase "ice and fire" is also mentioned in the Reeds' oath of loyalty to Bran Stark. The phrase "ice and fire" appears two more times in the books as an example of opposites. However, the song and the promise are never mentioned again, and the song itself remains a mystery.

personally i think the two horns (the dragon horn (fire) that Vic has, and the northern horn (ice) sam has) will play the song of ice and fire. and i think it will involve Dany and Jon, as well as whitewalkers and dragons.

as far as melisandre, i think shes the least capable red priest we've encountered, with Thoros being better than her, and Moqurro being #2 of the order, should be better than Thoros

and yes some people in westeros do know of AA, but not enough. it feels limited to Maesters, historians, and nerds like Sam that are balls deep in the old books. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its the constant "Ice and Fire" theme that leads me away from Dany as fulfilling this role, as ultimately it is Jon who fits the Ice and Fire conditions best, as currently this is all we know about the PtwP prophecy. I'd imagine we'll find out a lot more about what the Maesters know when we get more time with Sam in Oldtown. Also, speaking of Maesters, Marwyn must be due to arrive in Meereen sometime soon.

That's as much as I can do just now. Try not to talk too much until tomorrow =/