religion

[Barkingturtle]

I'm glad you finally conceded.

[RobotElvis]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Murder is not universally "wrong" in every society. If that was true honor killings wouldn't be a thing. ISIS beheadings wouldn't be a thing. The Soviet Union would not have been a thing. The conquest of the Americas... do you get the picture yet?

Not applicable. It is still wrong. People would try to leave totalitarian regimes if it was acceptable within human morality. But they do, because it's wrong.

As I said their actions go against the base principles of morality, principles they are universal. Just because people have gone beyond their moral senses does not mean that they have never had morality.
That is why we say people like these must be brought to justice.
Justice is a part of our morality.

Animals could care less about justice. They have no morality.

[Barkingturtle]

Pure drivel.

[RobotElvis]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would rather go back to the original point as opposed to arguing semantics (not disregarding what you are saying, I in fact agree with most of it, it is not relevant to the original question is all).

The Religious claim is that either a. Morality is in our hearts because of God or b. Humans are universally immoral without the Bible. They pick one or the other depending on which suits their purposes at what time.

Secularists (I at least) are aware that while morality is something, it's a mere concept and is absolutely not universally uniform, but varying types of morality (universally?) exist among (most) animal species, man included. Is it hereditary or socially constructed or both? Honestly I have no fucking clue. I do know that hereditary morality would be subject to change in the same way that hair color, height, intelligence, etc. have variations within the same gene pool.

In short I think the original question was malformed.

Yes but morality has everything to do with "f:ck religion". That is a statement based upon the morality of religion. Plain and simple.

So the issue is where does morality come from? It cannot be proven to be a product of biological evolution, or it plus be present in the animal kingdom.

[iruinedyourday]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Barkingturtle]

Originally Posted by RobotElvis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So the issue is where does morality come from? It cannot be proven to be a product of biological evolution, or it plus be present in the animal kingdom.

Again, you don't even know what the fucking word means.

Morality is present in the animal kingdom. That which governs an animal's behavior, gives it its own sense of right and wrong -- that is its morality.

Morality is completely mutable.

Say you had a child. Crazy, I know. Say it shared your morals, because you taught it your version of right and wrong. Now, say someone abducts your child and locks it in a closet for a few years, only letting it out to perform extreme, gonzo sex acts upon it. Sorry, forgot where I was going with this.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by RobotElvis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes but morality has everything to do with "f:ck religion". That is a statement based upon the morality of religion. Plain and simple.

So the issue is where does morality come from? It cannot be proven to be a product of biological evolution, or it plus be present in the animal kingdom.

Apes that are taught sign language often express firm grasps on empathy and morality. Many have pets and when asked why they don't simply eat them, express that they love them. When the pet dies they tell us they are sad and that they miss the pets.

It's not limited to primates either. It doesn't take a marine biologist to see clearly their grasp of moral and ethical concepts.

Not found in the animal kingdom? Garbage. Next you'll claim that homosexual behavior is absent in the animal kingdom. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, you don't even know what the fucking word means.

Just because you're having difficulty with the language, don't project it on others. The only one demonstrating the inability to understand words here is you.

[leewong]

Originally Posted by RobotElvis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not applicable. It is still wrong. People would try to leave totalitarian regimes if it was acceptable within human morality. But they do, because it's wrong.

And some people try to rise to the top of those regimes. Every human has a differing sense of what is and is not moral. Every example you have given illustrates it.

[paulgiamatti]

The building blocks of morality are found in the animal kingdom which, if I might remind everyone, we are all a part of as a higher primate species. But to say a dog or a dolphin or a chimpanzee caring for its young or working in a group is behaving in a morally sound, ethically centered way is a bit silly. I'm not saying those things are immoral; quite to the contrary, they are clear indications that the early beginnings of morality were present in them before we ever existed.