"Purest" Everquest Start

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by Krankor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They had a server on live that was PvP and permadeath. It was probably the most fun I've ever had playing EverQuest.

the more i think of this kind of server, the more fun it seems. Imagine: an entire server where getting out of your teens is a pretty serious job.

see, it would be cool,because in classic, lvls 1-20 are very good levels in themselves.

It's just a fascinating idea. But I still think permadeath is too much. Maybe give each char 20 deaths total. And pvp? that's too much for my taste [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[spatrix87]

I would LOVE this as this is exactly what I am looking for! I love the progression feel of games, and having a toon in a group at level 1 with a Green Jade Broadsword is not something I enjoy, and when I say something about it I usually get laughed at or told that it's part of the game. It seems to me people forget that NEW people to P99 are joining daily and they don't want to be rushed to the end, I mean that is what I joined P99 for.... to get away from the modern MMORPG's gameplay style. I don't like ending up in "twinked" groups, especially as a tank early on.... if you aren't "twinked" your job cannot be done properly.

I want that REAL Everquest Classic feel! Send me a PM on site or get ahold of me on Sarnaxis, or Quapht in game (I'm on quite often) I would be happy to roll a new toon or hopefully I would have something in your range already. Currently have a 18 Warrior, who I probably wouldn't use for this. Or a fresh Erudite Wizzy I rolled last night.

[spatrix87]

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

good luck. however, nothing will ever be pure unless you do it on a new server from scratch. The economy changes to such a degree that you essentially cannot buy anything for market price and keep things pure. You essentially have to loot every item you get yourself, which of course isn't a pure experience.

I speak from experience.
But good luck.

Dolic

How the hell is "looting every item you get yourself" not a pure experience? To some of us the amount of platinum we have isn't everything, and we actually find joy in looting weapons that are tough to get with sharpened rusty weapons.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by myriverse [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Started in September 1999. That's classic. Twinking is classic. Power-leveling is classic.

These things were most certainly NOT prominent, or existent at all, on new servers during the first 8 months of Everquest. They were also game abuses which the company didn't have the manpower to fix at the time.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These things were most certainly NOT prominent, or existent at all, on new servers during the first 8 months of Everquest. They were also game abuses which the company didn't have the manpower to fix at the time.

Twinking and PLing were in no way game abuses. They were part of the core game and design style. You may not like them (though I don't think you've thought it through because without them this would not be an open world, open system MMO and everything would be instanced and level-limited and bind on equip). You actually can't have EQ as it is without the ability to do those things.

[Zuranthium]

They were not at all part of the "core game and design style". The devs went on record many times saying that's not what they intended and they specifically put in ways to try and hinder power leveling (and eventually twinking), when they had the time.

You can absolutely have an open World system without those two things. If a Level 50 Druid runs over and casts a Level 50 buff spell on a Level 10 player, the game could simply make it so the buff acts as Level 10 buff. There would be nothing wrong with that AT ALL. It can even make sense in terms of RPG realism that the lower level player wouldn't be able to "handle" the higher level buff to begin with. Also, buffs shouldn't be long-term, fire-and-forget anyway. That's poor combat design.

The same thing goes for equipment - nothing wrong with having level restrictions on them. It again also makes sense that a character can't handle certain equipment until they are experienced enough (this makes even MORE sense than a character not being able to "handle" a higher level magical buff). Are medical students able to perform open heart surgeries after just 2 years of med school? No, they aren't.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, buffs shouldn't be long-term, fire-and-forget anyway. That's poor combat design.

Not to get into an extended design discussion, but I couldn't disagree more. It's not poor design at all, it's just what you think you don't want. Having otherwise creates a lot of changes I don't think you realize - though maybe you do and that's the sort of game you want. Fair enough, but that's not EQ.

Higher level buffs not landing on lower level characters is in the game now anyway (there was and maybe still is an issue with Bard 51 Selos due to it).

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The same thing goes for equipment - nothing wrong with having level restrictions on them. It again also makes sense that a character can't handle certain equipment until they are experienced enough (this makes even MORE sense than a character not being able to "handle" a higher level magical buff). Are medical students able to perform open heart surgeries after just 2 years of med school? No, they aren't.

Some are and have had to in remote areas, but nevertheless they can sure pick up the scalpel and work the forceps that achieve the operation. The skill of how well they do that is built into other areas of character design (skills etc.)

What you are advocating is what almost every other game does. You lose a lot more than you gain with these restrictions. Having to have them is sign of bad design IMO - or if not bad, cheap. There is always a better solution. Forcing those sorts of restrictions is a big red flag that your other systems haven't been elegantly designed and require such artificial, immersion breaking arbitrariness to patch up the holes.

Why can't a lower level pick up and use that sword, within the game world I mean? What is the explanation? That's a great mechanic for specific items (like the magic named swords in D&D that required a certain Wisdom or Intelligence score to wield and subdue the "will" of the sword) but as a general "that's just the way it is because we have to balance things", it's frankly a cheesy, cheap, nasty solution. I don't like, and never did, the No Drop element even in EQ. The same applies to it. It was a concession, though I understand the deep design issue it addresses.

Some of the absolute best things in games come from players finding the gaps between design elements that the designers didn't and could never have anticipated. Overdesigning, and over-balancing, and over-policing things to remove small exploit possibilities also removes those moments of magic - and they are the best things about games.

All this is why I and others love EQ, and still consider it unmatched in modern MMOs.

P.S. You're going to have to provide links for what you say the devs said. You may be right, but I don't remember it that way. If it was SOE post-Verant, well, I consider what they did to the game as pretty much sleazy money-grubbing cynicism anyway - and did at the time.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not to get into an extended design discussion, but I couldn't disagree more. It's not poor design at all, it's just what you think you don't want.

It's not what anyone wants. Nobody truly finds it rewarding to sit there and buff the group with a spell, full med, buff them with another couple spells, full med, a couple more buffs...and THEN starting fighting...and THEN start the buffing rounds again another 30 minutes later. If you ask anyone for a top 10 list of things that made Everquest exciting, memorial, and special...this process I just described would never be mentioned as one of them.

Look at Guild Wars 1 for how Healers in MMORPG's should be played. I'll let you use an account if you've never experienced it before. Actively "protting" (protecting) yourself and teammates with the most appropriate skill as the damage comes in, or a couple seconds BEFORE it comes in, is far and away a more active and skillful and enjoyable endeavor than applying rounds of buffs every 30 mins and casting Complete Heal every so often.

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What you are advocating [with not being able to twink] is what almost every other game does. You lose a lot more than you gain with these restrictions.

You don't lose anything and you GAIN far more community interaction and long-term stability in your game. No twinking means lower level characters always need to progress at a relatively normal rate and with a group. This means new players coming to the game will constantly have people to play with, since older players can't just RUSH the leveling of their alts. It also means the newer players are LEARNING, since the older players are forced to actually put effort in on their alts and therefore are interacting with the newer players. Plus the older players will receive much more fulfillment in the end.

None of this would even be a question if game content was much more dynamic, rather than being static. That's obviously what the developers would have wanted from the beginning, but there was absolutely no way at the time to make it happen. They would have had to hire a ridiculous amount of programmers and/or GM's to make it a reality.

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why can't a lower level pick up and use that sword, within the game world I mean? What is the explanation? That's a great mechanic for specific items (like the magic named swords in D&D that required a certain Wisdom or Intelligence score to wield and subdue the "will" of the sword") but as a general "that's just the way it is because we have to balance things", it's frankly a cheesy, cheap, nasty solution. I don't like, and never did, the No Drop element even in EQ.

Oh, a lower level player could certainly be allowed EQUIP higher-level items, but the stats would simply change to automatically be level-appropriate when they equipped it.

However, you just gave the reason for why many (most) higher level items shouldn't even be equippable by lower level players, IN THE RPG sense -- higher level items are almost always magical. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that a magical item would refuse to work for someone who isn't worthy of it. ("The Sword in the Stone", HELLO?!?!?)

There's also a practical gaming reason for this -- because equipment is a status symbol. It's a visual representation that MEANS something and creates an added level of visceral competition. This is incredibly important for keeping some players interested in a game after they've reached "the max level". If a certain item does the exact same thing as another item, but is far more rare and/or has a much better look, players WILL go out of their way and spend a lot of time to obtain those rarer and more aesthetically appealing items.

[t0lkien]

What you want is a different game. These are the things that I and others like about EQ - no kidding, we like them. You (say you) don't, but if you dislike them so much, why are you here? There must be something you like. If you changed these things, you'd simultaneously remove the very things that make this game what it is. If not, you'd be somewhere else - there are literally scores of games that do what you are saying you want. If the result of those changes is so good, why aren't you there?

I beta-ed GW2 and played it from release for a few weeks, and then just couldn't be bothered playing it longer. I have very little to say about that game that you would like. I disagree with almost every single thing they did design-wise. I didn't like the art direction at all either, though it was a beautifully executed piece of work in that regard.

P.S. re. twinking, other games have locked it out by design and then implemented an entirely new system that then allowed it (e.g. heirlooms). If that isn't the ultimate irony and absurdity, I don't know what is.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What you want is a different game.

Wrong. What I want is what Classic EQ was. But you never even experienced actual Classic EQ since you didn't start the game until after Kunark released.

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I beta-ed GW2 and played it from release for a few weeks, and then just couldn't be bothered playing it longer. I have very little to say about that game that you would like.

Why are you talking about Guild Wars 2?

I specifically said Guild Wars 1.

They are completely different games. The brand name and certain lore are the only things they really share.