Hot Patch: Monday, February 24th, 2014

[Yoite]

posted this in bug forums but posting again here for more view

did some testing again tonight. I did each of these multiple times to prove repeatability before coming here to post.

case 1 - Body pulling.

can body pull and bring mob into camp. Before mob has a chance to attack sitters I would engage with a taunt, bash, and attack. Even when taunt worked (got you will not evade me soandso) and even when bash landed and stunned them, and even when both of those worked and mob was attacked by my melee dmg before bash stun wore off, the mob will still attack sitter before returning to me.

In this case where the taunt landed, and then I was the only one to perform actions after mob was taunted and while it was stunned with bash, I should have been at the top of agro via taunt and well above anyone else with the bash and attack since no one had done anything to the mobs at this time.

Case 2 - Attacking mob with melee attack and bash.

In this case i would bash and then attack the mob with 1 melee round before bringing into camp. In most cases this would still result in the mob attacking ALL sitting players before coming back to me.

The only exception was if my bash and attack round did enough dmg to lower the mob past appox 85% hp.

case 3 - attacking mob for several rounds before pulling into camp.

If i soloed the mob to 50% of hp before then pulling back to group, it would stay on me and not attack any sitters.
If i soloed the mob to 85% of hp before then pulling back to group it may or may not attack sitters.
If i soloed the mob to 95% of hp before then pulling back to group it would still attack sitters before returning to me.

While this is by no means a viable way to pull as you will usually die trying to solo a mob before bringing in I was able to test this using a twink that could take the hits and do enough dmg.


This shows a few things to me. One is the sit agro is still way to high, on live a single attack was enough to hold the mob on you over sit agro. remember agro from melee attacks does not matter if you miss or hit. The other is sit agro is either so high or is not taking into consideration taunt or something else weird. I cant understand how the mobs are still attacking sitters even after a successful taunt, bash stun, and melee round.


i hope this helps =)

[Nuggie]

Originally Posted by Yoite [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This shows a few things to me. One is the sit agro is still way to high, on live a single attack was enough to hold the mob on you over sit agro.

From my memory, which is admittedly weak, I find this innacurate. casters/healers used to get hit during pulls if they were sitting when mobs came into camp. Whether they wre pulled with a bow, spells, or proxim aggro. On live I played a paladin, if I pulled with a stun the casters were getting up, one way or another, when mobs entered the camp.

But like I said, my memory is weak.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Nuggie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On live I played a paladin, if I pulled with a stun the casters were getting up, one way or another, when mobs entered the camp.

That's not the best way to do it. On live back then, as on P1999, the first attack on a mob generated miniscule aggro. Hence pulling with a high-aggro spell as a tank was a waste. Aggro the mob first, then hit it with a high hate ability. Better yet, have someone else pull and simply peel the target off once it reaches camp.

For what its worth, when fighting random junk since the patch, my wife's Shaman can be as careless as usual and we don't notice anything different relative to a week ago. As per our norm, I'll pull something, and she can Malo it as soon as it's in range, then spam Turgur's--multiple times if necessary--followed maybe by Cripple and spamming her damage over time spells until they stick. Then she'll sit down three feet from the thing and not get touched, same as pre-patch. That's just my own experience, but it hardly seems like the end of the world. Just one more thing to be aware of, really, even before any additional tuning we may see.

Danth

[Yoite]

there doesnt seem to be any change in sit agro as far as once the mob is on you. I can still hold agro with a single flash of light in most cases. once its on me, its on me and the group can cast away. But what seems to be off is the mobs attacking on inc.

I posted so more stuff in the bug thread regarding intercepting the mobs with bash and attacks while in sit agro range but before they can reach the sitter.

[Teerian]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

@Teerian:
That's how Dain Frostreaver worked, in probably early Luclin, on eqlive, with 6 mage pets attacking him. That's it. I don't have some type of agenda with it, and went as far as to say I didn't want to convolute the process. Could have been because he's a raid npc, because of the rule of 4, or who knows what. I posted it fwiw.

I don't believe you have an agenda or anything. I just felt you might be remembering wrong or recalling certain, specific incidences as the way pet aggro worked in general. What Bartly posted makes sense. It would explain both why your 6-man mage crew had threat issues and why I rarely seemed to encounter any since I was usually solo or in a group of under 4 people. I didn't see issues in normal experience groups either since pet tanking was rarely needed, so that could explain why I never noticed such a mechanic.

Also, it was too late at night for me to put two and two together to figure out what that acronym stood for.

[Skydash]

Originally Posted by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Were you the tank too? Or were mobs being tagged by an sk or pal on incoming?

Too many details missing.

Body pulls almost guaranted a sitter getting beat on, unless they were out of the way enough.

I tried searching everywhere.. I read all the old 2001 Monkley Buziness threads about pulling: no where in all those discussions do they bring up sit agro, except one place which mentions sitting increased proximity agro for pulling, and another: sitting under mob's belly to pull agro from tank

Then I found another place discussing two agro lists for mob's. One proximity and one Hate, once the Hate agro has been established by anyone it turned the Proximity off.

From my memory, pulling for a long time in Lower Guk, only a body poll(proximity pull), had a chance of going after someone else with a higher proximity agro. But once the mob gained ANY hate, by throwing 1 shiruken.. it would stay chasing.

The reason mobs attacked sitting people when they got back to group in raids etc, is because a bard would be in the group and put everyone on the Hate list once the song hit the puller... sitting on the Hate list moved the casters up and pulled the mobs to them.

Heres some druids griping in 2003 about how agro is busted now

This guy is baffled by a new agro mechanic in 2010, and much discussion follows about SNAFU. And someone made this quote,

"If you are saying that you pulled a mob over a group of people which were not currently engaged with another mob that is social with the one you pulled over them, that none of the people in that group did anything to the mob chasing you and none of them cast a benefical spell on you (or anyone else who was already on the mob's Hate List), and that you did not somehow dump your aggro (FD, Fade, Evac, etc.) while the mob was in proximity aggro range of the group, yet the mob stopped to attack them along the way then...yes, that is definately not normal behavior. "


Anyways, hope you look at some of these posts. Very interesting stuff.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Yoite [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But what seems to be off is the mobs attacking on inc.

For the life of me I can't replicate the behavior you describe unless I specifically try to do so (ie, if I deliberately pull without generating hate which would be highly abnormal for me). Not 5 minutes ago I told the wife to sit while I pulled a Cliff Golem directly over her and it completely ignored her. Whatever tweaks may be forthcoming, I think in the meantime it's best to get used to generating some hate upon pull.

Danth

[scarletghost]

Originally Posted by Skydash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I tried searching everywhere.. I read all the old 2001 Monkley Buziness threads about pulling: no where in all those discussions do they bring up sit agro, except one place which mentions sitting increased proximity agro for pulling, and another: sitting under mob's belly to pull agro from tank

Then I found another place discussing two agro lists for mob's. One proximity and one Hate, once the Hate agro has been established by anyone it turned the Proximity off.

From my memory, pulling for a long time in Lower Guk, only a body poll(proximity pull), had a chance of going after someone else with a higher proximity agro. But once the mob gained ANY hate, by throwing 1 shiruken.. it would stay chasing.

The reason mobs attacked sitting people when they got back to group in raids etc, is because a bard would be in the group and put everyone on the Hate list once the song hit the puller... sitting on the Hate list moved the casters up and pulled the mobs to them.

Heres some druids griping in 2003 about how agro is busted now

This guy is baffled by a new agro mechanic in 2010, and much discussion follows about SNAFU. And someone made this quote,

"If you are saying that you pulled a mob over a group of people which were not currently engaged with another mob that is social with the one you pulled over them, that none of the people in that group did anything to the mob chasing you and none of them cast a benefical spell on you (or anyone else who was already on the mob's Hate List), and that you did not somehow dump your aggro (FD, Fade, Evac, etc.) while the mob was in proximity aggro range of the group, yet the mob stopped to attack them along the way then...yes, that is definately not normal behavior. "


Anyways, hope you look at some of these posts. Very interesting stuff.

/applaud

[pharmakos]

Originally Posted by Nuggie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From my memory, which is admittedly weak, I find this innacurate. casters/healers used to get hit during pulls if they were sitting when mobs came into camp. Whether they wre pulled with a bow, spells, or proxim aggro. On live I played a paladin, if I pulled with a stun the casters were getting up, one way or another, when mobs entered the camp.

But like I said, my memory is weak.

its because your stuns didn't do any damage.

[Blasted]

Originally Posted by Skydash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I tried searching everywhere.. I read all the old 2001 Monkley Buziness threads about pulling: no where in all those discussions do they bring up sit agro, except one place which mentions sitting increased proximity agro for pulling, and another: sitting under mob's belly to pull agro from tank

Then I found another place discussing two agro lists for mob's. One proximity and one Hate, once the Hate agro has been established by anyone it turned the Proximity off.

From my memory, pulling for a long time in Lower Guk, only a body poll(proximity pull), had a chance of going after someone else with a higher proximity agro. But once the mob gained ANY hate, by throwing 1 shiruken.. it would stay chasing.

The reason mobs attacked sitting people when they got back to group in raids etc, is because a bard would be in the group and put everyone on the Hate list once the song hit the puller... sitting on the Hate list moved the casters up and pulled the mobs to them.

Heres some druids griping in 2003 about how agro is busted now

This guy is baffled by a new agro mechanic in 2010, and much discussion follows about SNAFU. And someone made this quote,

"If you are saying that you pulled a mob over a group of people which were not currently engaged with another mob that is social with the one you pulled over them, that none of the people in that group did anything to the mob chasing you and none of them cast a benefical spell on you (or anyone else who was already on the mob's Hate List), and that you did not somehow dump your aggro (FD, Fade, Evac, etc.) while the mob was in proximity aggro range of the group, yet the mob stopped to attack them along the way then...yes, that is definately not normal behavior. "


Anyways, hope you look at some of these posts. Very interesting stuff.

Honestly, all of this sounds accurate to the best of my memory from classic through PoP. I played a paladin and a warrior, so I had experience pulling in a variety of ways. With exceptions caused by bards, if someone hasn't engaged a mob, he shouldn't cause a mob to peel off someone who has engaged, just because he's sitting nearby. As I'm typing this, I'm imagining how easy it would be to train people if anything else were the case.

Am I reading something incorrectly, or are we really debating this mechanic?

Edit: Undeads may have behaved differently at times. Memory is fuzzy there.