Hobby Lobby

[Kekephee]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Parents are authorized to make decisions on behalf of their child to further the best interests of the child. Death is (or should) almost always be not in the interests of the child. The only exception being, as you mentioned, life-support cases where there is no reasonable chance of recovery which then makes the situation one of triage and not termination.

I can think of a few other exceptions. The world is a tremendously shitty place and there's a strong argument to be made against bringing a life into it in general, but if that's not good enough we can talk about poverty or overall quality of life living with diseases such as ectodactyly, down's syndrome, whatever you think the worst disease to live with would be that doesn't directly harm the health of the child but guarantees a terrible life. This is why it's a grey area and simply stating "a parent shouldn't get to make that decision" doesn't work: to someone like me, given that I view the world itself as being more or less a terrible disease that ensures a lifetime of misery, and therefore would have an easier time rationalizing to myself the termination of a healthy fetus, the addition of some horrible disease that wouldn't prove fatal but would just make things exponentially worse really cinches it. For you, obviously, that doesn't hold true; the question then becomes, why do you get to decide and I don't? Why can't I make that decision for my kid? Why do you get to tell me it's not "right"? Isn't that my business?


And since the answer invariably is "absolutely, it is none of your business to make that decision for me," doesn't that mean my employer, my insurance company, and the government also don't get to?

[Kekephee]

Originally Posted by Kekephee [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can think of a few other exceptions. The world is a tremendously shitty place and there's a strong argument to be made against bringing a life into it in general, but if that's not good enough we can talk about poverty or overall quality of life living with diseases such as ectodactyly, down's syndrome, whatever you think the worst disease to live with would be that doesn't directly harm the health of the child but guarantees a terrible life. This is why it's a grey area and simply stating "a parent shouldn't get to make that decision" doesn't work: to someone like me, given that I view the world itself as being more or less a terrible disease that ensures a lifetime of misery, and therefore would have an easier time rationalizing to myself the termination of a healthy fetus, the addition of some horrible disease that wouldn't prove fatal but would just make things exponentially worse really cinches it. For you, obviously, that doesn't hold true; the question then becomes, why do you get to decide and I don't? Why can't I make that decision for my kid? Why do you get to tell me it's not "right"? Isn't that my business?



And since the answer invariably is "absolutely, it is none of your business to make that decision for me," doesn't that mean my employer, my insurance company, and the government also don't get to?

Addendum: Your answer will probably be "you can decide for yourself, but not for your baby," to which I respond (and this is also a response to your earlier point about achieving personhood) that a fetus will not be capable of making that decision for, oh, let's say twenty years. Twenty seems like a good age for a person to have a right to really make a good decision about whether or not they want to be alive; obviously a toddler doesn't have the cognitive capability, a child doesn't have the life experience, a teenager is a confused mess of hormones and is not rational or developed enough mentally but thinks they are. These things even out around twenty five, that's when the brain's ability to make decisions is fully developed, let's go with 25.

Personally, I will not subject a living thing to 25 years of misery because someone told me I didn't have a "right" to make a judgment call on their behalf. But obviously not everyone agrees with that, which brings us back to, none of anyone's business but mine and the life for which I am responsible (the kid)

[Kekephee]

I guess I confused the issue a little bit. This kind of became about abortion when it should have been about Hobby Lobby.


So the big question is, under what circumstances does my boss get to dictate, based on his religious beliefs, how I live my life? (It's already been said that this isn't actually a religious issue, the company is just finding an excuse to not spend money, but for the sake of argument.)

[Frieza_Prexus]

You can make whatever decisions you want for yourself. There is no right to end the existence of a third party. You don't get to make the call because no one can. You're basically framing the argument as if children were property. Parents are guardians of their children not owners.

To address your addendum: you're essentially justifying the killing of any mental incompetent. Mom's got Alzheimer's? Don't worry; I have a gun. You may think there should be a right to do so. Many do, but no amount of gymnastics can divorce the act from its definition. You are morally justifying the death of people whose existence you personally find inconvenient. No one can make the determination about the worthiness of a life but the one living it.

[Estolcles]

Originally Posted by Kekephee [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

a child doesn't have the life experience

I was once in a mental hospital in a wing with other teenagers (when I was a teen) because I was extremely depressed, and almost suicidal. In the ajoining wing was an area loaded with little kids, like 10 years old and younger, that were there for the same thing.

Nothing is as disturbing (and I look at a lot of gore porn, so I know) as watching a 5 year old scream about wanting to die, wanting to kill themselves, and then actually see them sneak into the nurse's area, and wrap a telephone cord around their neck tight enough that had a nurse not noticed and found him shortly thereafter, they would have succeeded in their goal.

It's pretty fucked up.

[Dragonsblood1987]

You were institutionalized for being almost suicidal?

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Kekephee [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess I confused the issue a little bit. This kind of became about abortion when it should have been about Hobby Lobby.


So the big question is, under what circumstances does my boss get to dictate, based on his religious beliefs, how I live my life? (It's already been said that this isn't actually a religious issue, the company is just finding an excuse to not spend money, but for the sake of argument.)

Bosses do it all the time. Drug tests, codes of conduct, etc. The main point of their argument is generally that they are being coerced by the law to violate their sincerely held religious beliefs. This is generally something that is strongly protected under the Constitution. These are sincerely held beliefs. I am personal friends with a litigator working on this case. This is an absolutly sincere battle; it is not about the money.

[Pokesan]

hey did anybody say eat the rich yet?

eat the rich

[Estolcles]

Originally Posted by Dragonsblood1987 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You were institutionalized for being almost suicidal?

Multiple times.

Extreme depression is a bitch. Even now, on 3 different mental meds, I still have daily thoughts at random times of suicide. Only reason I don't kill myself is my religious belief in Hell.

But I don't fear death. I welcome it.

[Dragonsblood1987]

I refuse to take prescription meds for depression. You shouldn't be ingesting all those fucked up chemicals. Smoke some weed if you're depressed. At worst, it'll make you apathetic in stead of depressed. I opened up my forearm once when I was 17 and ended up passing out from blood loss, but I guess it clotted before organs started shutting down. That sort of put shit into perspective for me, and while my depression is still present and is mostly existential, I haven't been suicidal since. Any reasonable person fears death, but they don't let that fear paralyze them. Some people need a little push to see it though, like almost bleeding out did for me.