Public Raid Petitions: P99 Freedom of Information Act

[Ele]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have any of you advocates actually looked at the workings of precedence-based legal systems (like, oh, say, the U.S.)? Can you really be so blind to the evil you're wishing upon the server staff? Seriously guys, you're advocating redefining LawyerQuest in the most awful way imaginable. Drama is entertaining, but there wouldn't be enough to compensate for the otherwise unmitigated ugliness you're trying to infect p99 with.

Procedures and guidelines would streamline the current process, which currently drains days (not just hours) of the server staff's time each week.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Have any of you advocates actually looked at the workings of precedence-based legal systems (like, oh, say, the U.S.)?

Yes. I am extremely familiar with the concept of jurisprudence and its applications.

Originally Posted by kaev

you're advocating redefining LawyerQuest in the most awful way imaginable.

I disagree. "LawyerQuest" is already at its maximum potential. Dozens, if not hundreds, of conversations occur over Skype, via PM, and in game every time one these petitions is made. Guilds and their advocates are already throwing the kitchen sink during argument, and there's very little room to make it more complicated.

Making petitions open will have two effects the make your fears unnecessary.

1) Public communications will force the petitions and responses to be concise, appropriate, and exhaustive. No more back and forth of he said she said for days and weeks on end. Open petitions, by their nature, demand that the argument be front loaded. Thus, your fear that LawyerQuest will escalate is put to rest.

2) The rules come first. The precedence is in the application of those rules only. This means that there is ultimately less room for argument and that the rules will become more and more defined as time passes. This means that LawyerQuest will become increasingly restricted as time passes.

I understand your desire to eliminate pointless argument and unjust situations, but private petitions with no formal organization for their resolution are not efficient, nor are they conducive to justice and fair play.

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by Clasick [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The rule lawyering would start working in petition case law digging up and quoting various GM rulings. It's not so much about consistent rulings it's about every situation being unique.

This.

We are going to start seeing "in the case of TMO vs IB in trakanon spawn 2641 on nov twenty one two thousand and fourteen it was stated that each party is blah blah blah"

The rule lawyering will be elevated to a whole new level of stupidity.

Also, if this does go through, what will you all bitch about when staff is proven to not be "corrupt" in their raid rulings? There is comedic value there!

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Pringles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are going to start seeing "in the case of TMO vs IB in trakanon spawn 2641

This is already the case.

Providing public accountability will only serve to reduce this as I explained above.

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is already the case.

Providing public accountability will only serve to reduce this as I explained above.

The lawyering will increase ten fold.

[Daldaen]

I elect myself to moderate the bug forums and guild forums.

Bug forums just to move resolved issues, and guild forums to perma ban trolling.

[Phats]

The adjudication of petitions will not be solved by making them public. Most guilds are privy to the petitions they submit. The ex parte conversations will still occur, hours of Skype calls, pages of private messages and profanity laced tirades when attempting to resolve the issues.

I support your effort for petitions to be made public but the petition process will only improve when GM Sirken and GM Derubael learn how to be proper arbitrators. Both GMs have shown prevalence into trying to be personalities within the P99 community. (http://www.twitch.tv/sirkenp99/profile, http://www.twitch.tv/derubael/profile) These two vastly different roles of enforcer of server rules and P99 personality popularity contest do not go hand in hand. If a petition involves raid disputes both GMs should recuse themselves for a long list of conflict of interests. (previous guild affiliation, personal relationships with players they preside over, inflammatory remarks regarding the players they preside over, previous infraction of server rules while a player)

Both GM Sirken and Derubael enable the behavior they contend leads to the problems with the petition process. Neither GMs follows any set of rules or precedents. Both GMs frequently contradict each other in their streams and or postings or dealings in regards to petitions.

The OP did address the problem in regards to the "Petition Process." Currently the process is dysfunctional and the proposed petition process is posted in fragments through out various posts, ( and is not adhered to by any party (GM or Player). The posts outlined by Derubael and Sirken on how guilds were supposed to handle petitions are rarely enforced or followed.

The GMs mandated TMO & IB work out their differences between themselves and then after 7 days if the guilds were unable to come to an amicable solution, they should escalate the matter thru the use of a petition on the forums. Neither of the below examples followed the rule as set by the GMs.

• IB incurred a 2 week suspension for engaging a dracoliche that was FTE'd by another guild. The mob in question to this date still does not announce zone wide FTE shout messages, and agroing a pet does not produce an FTE shout. IB was suspended several hours after the infraction occurred. No guild to guild communication occurred.

• TMO was hit with a decade old petition and sucker punched with a suspension over some peculiar behavior by dragons in regards to training in VP.

A statute rule was put in place after TMO and BDA got suspended for very old petitions. This rule is a good example of the GMs attempting to put forth a process to alleviate the player concerns, the rule was positively received by all parties.
http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=149040

• IB was recently suspended for an alleged infraction from the beginning September. This infraction was not petitioned on the forums. It was allegedly discussed in Skype between Unbrella and the GMs three weeks after the fact. The GMs disregard their own procedure and process.

All guilds have been subject to petitions being left dormant for many week and months, GMs will only tell you to bump them, and yet nothing is done. Example TMO tracker getting FTE on Severilous, the subsequently TMO pulling Severilous, engaging Severilous with a raid force only to wipe. GM Sirken was present at the incident and had real time communication with the raid leaders prior to Severilous being killed. GM Sirken denied any involvement of the event or knowledge of it on his stream when Chest address the matter several days later. This was blatantly in violation of the rules set forth in http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=162920 (another example of a fragmented rule set, where you only know the rules if you listen to every stream or read over post in all the server forums) GMs took no action on this incident.

Then after weeks and months of no action regarding any dispute, GM Sirken public broadcast to the server:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the GMs would address petitions in a timely manner then neither of the guilds would have been in the position that led to the incidents that GM Sirken was referencing. I am more disgusted with GM Sirken and Derubael for ignoring matters for so long that he was forced to broadcast such a message.

The common theme I hear from our guild members and voiced by other guilds, is we want consistent rulings, fair arbitration, prompt resolution of petitions, and stiff but fair punishment. Currently none of this exists on P99.

Another issue is in regards to the Raid discussion forum. The GMs put this tool in place for guilds to have a means to communicate with GMs in a moderated setting. Recently TMO and BDA were faulted for exceeding bag limits. This specific bag limit question was posed over 8 months ago, http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=141585 and GMs either let the players arrive at a conclusion to interpret their poorly worded rule regarding bag limits or ignored the question entirely. Fast forward 8 months to today and Rogean rules that bag limits are to be interpreted in a different manner than all the guilds had been operating under. This is an example of a communication failure on the part of the GMs and those penalized are the guilds who try and follow the rules.

To conclude GM Sirken and Derubael are volunteers. They choose every day to continue in their current roles as GMs of P99. I think independent of raid decisions both GMs perform admirable. When it comes to raid petitions both GMs are currently graded with a failing performance. Neither GM supports the rule set Rogean instituted, both privately bash the rule set and the Class R structure.

Petitions made public, with a formal process, and new independent arbiters will be a step in the right direction.

[Erati]

how would this work practically?

would the GMs have to gather everything and post a 'Petition Summary with results'?

would the 'wronged' party run there and spew a bunch of keyboard vomit then the accused has X amount of time to respond with their side and then the GMs post final verdict? ( seems kinda dumb if thats the case as that original petition will be picked apart by the public well before the accused even responds )

i dont think this decreases any of the GMs work, however I would love if there was more transparency and consistency. Its insane they have to put in a full day of work via Skyping the raid guilds, that should not be happening to that extent unless Sirk/Deru really enjoy Skyping TMO/IB

I guess the best thing in my mind to do if something like this were to happen is to simply keep public records of the 'original complaint/petition' and the outcome. This way future rulings can start to become more consistent.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

How much would it cost to install security cameras at all raid target sites?

[Secrets]

Not classic.