Want to Start a Rogue and Just want to Make Sure I Understand a Couple Things

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact that you think your monks dps is fine with 140 STR honestly means nothing. You're leaving DPS on the table by not having more strength, it's really that simple.

STA may be harder to cap then STR, but that doesn't make it the best min/max stat. If you really want to min/max, then go all into CHA, since eventually STA can be capped as well.

The most noticeable starting stat will be STR. This will lead to more dps, more capacity to carry things, and more ability to swap gear out to stay at max strength. We can measure all of this as well, no matter how big or little the benefit. Putting into STA is essentially hoping you get the rare chance to see the use of it in action, but odds are you are dead before that extra STA mattered anyway.

I leveled a melee character recently, so the data is still fresh in my mind, and I have logs. I am not sure why you think the leveling speed of one level an hour equates to bad DPS. You also have no counter data which shows how much 30 STR is actually improving your DPS and leveling speeds in the lower levels. Again, min/maxing the leveling process simply for the sake of it is silly. If you want to level fast, you are probably planning on getting to level 60, so you need to think about what is better at 60.

STA being the harder stat to cap while also being a useful stat does make it the best min/max stat, because stat caps exist. Having 350 STR is the same thing as having 255 STR. Having 240 STA instead of 210 STA is giving you an actual return on your investment. Remember that you can only really get +50 STA from buffs via Riotous Health. You are going to pick Avatar over Primal Essence on a Rogue every time. This means you need more +STA pieces to cap STA.

I am not sure how often Rogues are actually Divine Interventioned, but you could argue for CHA if that has become a common tactic. Rogues are generally going to become raid characters, similar to Warriors.

With 20k worth of twink items you will have enough STR to carry items and you will DPS just fine while leveling.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I leveled a melee character recently, so the data is still fresh in my mind, and I have logs. I am not sure why you think the leveling speed of one level an hour equates to bad DPS. You also have no counter data which shows how much 30 STR is actually improving your DPS and leveling speeds in the lower levels.

STA being the harder stat to cap while also being a useful stat does make it the best min/max stat, because stat caps exist. Having 350 STR is the same thing as having 255 STR. Having 240 STA instead of 210 STA is giving you an actual return on your investment. Remember that you can only really get +50 STA from buffs via Riotous Health. You are going to pick Avatar over Primal Essence on a Rogue every time. This means you need more +STA pieces to cap STA.

I am not sure how often Rogues are actually Divine Interventioned, but you could argue for CHA if that has become a common tactic. Rogues are generally going to become raid characters, similar to Warriors.

With 20k worth of twink items you will have enough STR to carry items and you will DPS just fine while leveling.

Where did I say your monks DPS was bad? Still putting words in peoples hands, I see. I could easily prove that 30 STR increases DPS. This is an objective fact, more attack will lead to more max hits, lol. I'm not sure why you're even questioning this. You will kill mobs faster, thus leading to more mobs killed per play session, thus leading to more xp. This really isn't debatable, nor does it have to be proven. It's already been proven. And leveling speed is only a small part of the equation. Making sure you are str capped will ensure the raid is capitalizing on dps, which is critical.

STA being the harder stat to cap while also being a useful stat does not make it the best min/max stat. Min/max would put you in velious gear, capping Stamina. The correct answer here is CHA, and there are uses for it. Occasional DI, vendor prices, etc. You can't actually prove there's any use to capping STA. It's a hypothetical chance that it will save your life with more hp, it would be impossible to quantify the benefit as there are too many variants, so you're left with just magelo flexing, which CHA would be better for. In fact we could actually measure the CHA benefit more effectively too. It will lead to more pp over time selling to vendors.

Unless you can actually prove that more STA has saved X amount of lives resulting in Y extra dps, it's simply a dick measuring magelo stat, as I said many pages ago.

I'm not continuing this debate with you, as you will constantly make things up with napkin math saying ludicrous things like STR doesn't do anything after 140 because my EC geared monk already does fine dps, lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where did I say your monks DPS was bad? Still putting words in peoples hands, I see.

Here:

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact that you think your monks dps is fine with 140 STR honestly means nothing.

You seem to be suggesting that the DPS isn't very good, I simply have the opinion it's good. You can clarify what you meant if I am misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I could easily prove that 30 STR increases DPS. This is an objective fact, more attack will lead to more max hits, lol. I'm not sure why you're even questioning this. You will kill mobs faster, thus leading to more mobs killed per play session, thus leading to more xp. This really isn't debatable, nor does it have to be proven. It's already been proven. And leveling speed is only a small part of the equation. Making sure you are str capped will ensure the raid is capitalizing on dps, which is critical.

Nobody said that STR doesn't increase DPS. Nor did anybody say you need to prove that part with data. You are the one suggesting it will be noticeable enough to significantly improve your XP per hour. It is up to you to prove how much of an improvement 30 STR is to your DPS during the leveling process. Min/maxing the leveling process isn't ideal anyway, so I don't know why you care that much about it. If you want to level quickly, you should worry about what your stats mean at level 60. At level 60 you will easily be STR capped with Buffs on a group dependent class (which means you will probably be buffed).

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

STA being the harder stat to cap while also being a useful stat does not make it the best min/max stat. Min/max would put you in velious gear, capping Stamina. The correct answer here is CHA, and there are uses for it. Occasional DI, vendor prices, etc. You can't actually prove there's any use to capping STA. It's a hypothetical chance that it will save your life with more hp, it would be impossible to quantify the benefit as there are too many variants, so you're left with just magelo flexing, which CHA would be better for. In fact we could actually measure the CHA benefit more effectively too. It will lead to more pp over time selling to vendors.

I said CHA is a viable candidate if Rogues actually get DIed. I simply don't know how often that actually happens. At least you agree STR is no longer the best option here.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unless you can actually prove that more STA has saved X amount of lives resulting in Y extra dps, it's simply a dick measuring magelo stat, as I said many pages ago.

I'm not continuing this debate with you, as you will constantly make things up with napkin math saying ludicrous things like STR doesn't do anything after 140 because my EC geared monk already does fine dps, lol.

You are putting words in my mouth by claiming I said 140 STR is some sort of cap. Why do you say nonsense like this? I simply said my Monk is doing good DPS at 140 Strength, and leveling quickly. Max HP can save your life, this is a fact. I didn't say it was a high percentage chance.

[Baldwooky]

I agree Str will lead to more dps, but maxing stam isn't easy even with full velious raid gear and 95 base stam I still am 30~ points shy. I opt to cap at 205 which buffs give me 255.

Maxxing HP and resists is how you can stay engaged into any AoE raid fight. If you think not being able to stay in a fight and actually do damage isn't something you should consider, then thats up to you, enjoy your 4-5% more dps until you max Str, which is unrefutably cheaper (and realistic) to do.

A 0 dps rogue adds nothing.

Vendor prices.. give me a break if that's in any way meaningful.
max Charisma for vendor pricing can bought for like 100pp worth of jewlery.

It all depends what you want.

[7thGate]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I said CHA is a viable candidate if Rogues actually get DIed. I simply don't know how often that actually happens. At least you agree STR is no longer the best option here.

It has been my personal experience that, like most buffs, you have to ask for it. However, clerics generally do not carry emeralds, so if you want it, you will need to carry them.

I found this is similar to Avatar, actually, though some shamans will carry their own emerald supply, if you want it consistently you need to carry. I've got them on me for that, so can request DI when appropriate.

[Seducio]

Random piece of advice:

Around level 50 or 51, make sure your lockpicking skill is at least at 201 for Sebilis locked doors. Easy skills ups can be had in Befallen.

If it's below 201, consider mechanized lockpicks for the +2% bonus which may get you over 200.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It has been my personal experience that, like most buffs, you have to ask for it. However, clerics generally do not carry emeralds, so if you want it, you will need to carry them.

I found this is similar to Avatar, actually, though some shamans will carry their own emerald supply, if you want it consistently you need to carry. I've got them on me for that, so can request DI when appropriate.

Thank you for the information about how you deal with Divine Intervention. I don't have too much information on how often this spell actually gets used outside of raid tanks on the harder raid content.

The nice thing about Shamans is they can get Primal Avatar, which means they don't need to carry Emeralds. But not all Shamans have Primal Avatar, so it is good that you carry the components around just in case. Smart idea!

[Ripqozko]

another DSM thread, joy

[Seducio]

If DSM was a mob in game he'd have crazy high regen

[7thGate]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you for the information about how you deal with Divine Intervention. I don't have too much information on how often this spell actually gets used outside of raid tanks on the harder raid content.

The nice thing about Shamans is they can get Primal Avatar, which means they don't need to carry Emeralds. But not all Shamans have Primal Avatar, so it is good that you carry the components around just in case. Smart idea!

My guess is that it doesn't get a ton of use. I do ask for it, but only on fights where I think there's an actual chance I will die to AoE. If I'm doing a 47 man Telk or something I'm not going to bother. I've had a few clerics say no one has ever asked for the spell, so I'm guessing it probably isn't being requested a ton. It might be meta or guild dependent though.

Regardless, it's got a 10 minute duration, I don't think it's usually very disruptive to get, so if you want it I think you can probably usually have it.