As a christian.

[magnetaress]

I feel the biggest point we tend to neglect or overlook is that those texts and their origins are one of the biggest gateways towards true enlightenment and salvation. It's very easy to be overly critical because some sect somewhere doesn't measure up to "our standards"... yet at least they are on the path or way to salvation. Where as those that just live for pleasure and comfort and seek only their own immortality or power ... well... they are going to have a hard time finding peace and rest from the pain of ego. No one says you have to live with orthodox jews in a jewish commune, you have Catholicism or Islam as an option.

So it's too easy to overlook the bible and organized religion because of what some group of people make of it. The point is that it does help many of those people avoid drugs and degredation of themselves and their communities. And we need this to change badly in our secular world where people seem to feel free of any genuine consequences, I see secularism as far to nihilistic and if you think you can get away with it because the government can't get you, you are sorely mistaken in the suffering you will endure !!! and and and these ppl and have no tradition or practice in their lives that helps elevate their chakras or whatever. The very nature of communion brings us closer to Christ AND G-d. And this is a good thing. Even if those ppl still go and get themselves herpies, they have a way of coping and understanding themselves and why this happened and what they where doing to each other ! And a better way of facing it as a community than simple GULAG (which I personally favor, probably my worst sin). (a good compromise would be a monastic gulag !)

Who cares if we all agree or not? The point is glory to G-d and G-d's creation. And a better understanding of all of this, since we did chomp forbidden fruits !

Originally Posted by Seducio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

.

As in the multiple interpretations of the Constitution is seen as a feature and not a bug.

This - also there aught to be multiple paths to G-d IMO. One authority above them all. And that authority ordained by G-d. I eagerly await the 2cnd coming of Christ and Judgement day for us all. It is not a day to be feared, when we are ready. Remember it's not about when one person is ready it's when G-d's creation and thus, US are ready. Those who have chosen the path of G-d will be resurrected on this day. Judged, and given our choices.

[fivehundredyearwinter]

Originally Posted by Seducio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's almost as if each human that reads from texts that are categorized as 'divine texts' has their own interpretation of it. Is this why prior to the Reformation regular people who didn't know Latin were not able to read the Bible and interpret it themselves? Like it was a power move by the established church(es) at the time?

Depends really! There was actually a large movement of priests (and nuns!) who wanted to open literacy up to all sections of society. Latin was considered a necessary language for any noble worth their title to learn, so nobility could read the texts just fine typically. However your average peasant was unlikely to be able to read in Latin. If they could read, it would be in their own local language. But there was not much reason for many to learn to read since they weren't going to be writing letters to anyone and were unlikely to have the money for books, which back then were still a painstakingly long process of being made by hand.

Saying it was an established power move by the churches would feel like a neat and simple answer, but it'd be horribly inaccurate and paint about 1800 years of history with a single brush. The attitudes of the (catholic) Church towards mass literacy varied over time, indeed even in the Reformation the attitude of literacy was not always consistent. There was a decent subset of people who believed women learning to read was a sin, or who believed literacy should remain wholly confined to the landowning classes because 'the sheep need a rightly guided shepherd' (ie those who are not of the landowning classes are a bit dim/lesser and therefore do not need to learn to read so long as one of their 'betters' can read to them).

[magnetaress]

^^^

times a change tho and now more and more ppl than ever in the entire human history have access to the wisdom of the bible and christ and 10 commandments and the rights and traditions therein

even if its a minority of the total population of any given demographic

and it bleeds into all other aspects of society when people talk their frame (of reference teehheeee Einstien !!) is changed by their upbringing and exposure to these words (which is a good thing) because the gospel promotes integrity and compassion. Despite what the athiests would say.

EVEN IF Charlten Heston portrays Moses !

Hope this helps !

P.S. the more science I learned and understood the more convinced I am living in G-d's creation and not my own [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[fivehundredyearwinter]

Originally Posted by magnetaress [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^^^

times a change tho and now more and more ppl than ever in the entire human history have access to the wisdom of the bible and christ and 10 commandments and the rights and traditions therein

even if its a minority of the total population of any given demographic

and it bleeds into all other aspects of society when people talk their frame (of reference teehheeee Einstien !!) is changed by their upbringing and exposure to these words (which is a good thing) because the gospel promotes integrity and compassion. Despite what the athiests would say.

EVEN IF Charlten Heston portrays Moses !

Hope this helps !

P.S. the more science I learned and understood the more convinced I am living in G-d's creation and not my own [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have lived in a very Christian country all my live and I have experienced the words of the Bible, so I can confidently say I am going to hell because I wear pants from the men's section, unfortunately.

Deut.22

[5] The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

I'm sorry but men's pants just have much better pockets and don't make me feel self-conscious about my butt! Why do I got to settle for those tiny pockets that rip so easy if I put more than six quarters in them just because they're in the women's section?

[aussenseiter]

Originally Posted by fivehundredyearwinter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My friend was brought up in a hypercalvinist sect that believes God has already chosen all who would be saved, and therefore there is no way to get into heaven through belief or conversion because God has already made the decision before the world was made.

Calvinists believe that there is an 'Elect' group of people who are pre-chosen to go to heaven, and they are revealed by doing good deeds that god makes himself obvious through. Now how do you know god makes himself obvious through a particular good deed? Because good things happen to you, maybe. In truth, Calvinists disagree on this, and what constitutes a 'good deed'. In some sects, simply praying a lot and accepting god and jesus is enough to be considered a 'good deed'.

Then you have Calvinists who also see baptism as a requirement to be saved, because an Elect in their view can still be damned by not being baptized or failing to do good deeds.

This brought some Calvinists into conflict with Catholics. Catholics believe good deeds are necessary to get into heaven and there's no pre-election. So it's Good Deeds Get You Into Heaven vs You Know You're Going To Heaven Because You Did Good Deeds And Saw God In Them.

How can that be true if the lamb was foreordained to be slain before the Foundation of the World?

[kloudie]

As a Christian you should follow the philosophy of Jesus and stop judging people. People are human beings and everyone has the right to be respected no matter their beliefs. What matters is your actions and how you treat others. There are plenty of Christians that claim the title, don't follow it and treat it as a get out of hell free card. You have the freedom of religion and the freedom of speech. But you don't have freedom to impose your beliefs on people or the consequences of people's reactions to your fairy tale. Peace.

[Seducio]

Originally Posted by fivehundredyearwinter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Depends really! There was actually a large movement of priests (and nuns!) who wanted to open literacy up to all sections of society. Latin was considered a necessary language for any noble worth their title to learn, so nobility could read the texts just fine typically. However your average peasant was unlikely to be able to read in Latin. If they could read, it would be in their own local language. But there was not much reason for many to learn to read since they weren't going to be writing letters to anyone and were unlikely to have the money for books, which back then were still a painstakingly long process of being made by hand.

Saying it was an established power move by the churches would feel like a neat and simple answer, but it'd be horribly inaccurate and paint about 1800 years of history with a single brush. The attitudes of the (catholic) Church towards mass literacy varied over time, indeed even in the Reformation the attitude of literacy was not always consistent. There was a decent subset of people who believed women learning to read was a sin, or who believed literacy should remain wholly confined to the landowning classes because 'the sheep need a rightly guided shepherd' (ie those who are not of the landowning classes are a bit dim/lesser and therefore do not need to learn to read so long as one of their 'betters' can read to them).

This seems like super European 'top down authority' vibes for an American like me. Americans have that can do 'self help' spirit that Europeans aren't always on board with. Europeans were trained to expect their elites to fix things. Americans were taught to do it themselves. Yes I know that's painting with a large brush. What you said makes sense to me.

The rise of the Middle Class power following victory in WW2 empowered a whole population of 'would be serfs' had they been living in Europe in a different era. More people are literate than ever. Folks appear to be very content to engage with 'divine texts' in a way that seems relatively new compared with how elites from millennia ago engaged with them when they were written. I wonder if the printing press had something to do with this.

[kloudie]

This is the dumbest fucking thread ever by the way. I almost think this guy is trolling us, it's just too dumb.

[fivehundredyearwinter]

Originally Posted by aussenseiter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How can that be true if the lamb was foreordained to be slain before the Foundation of the World?

You'll need to ask John Calvin that, unfortunately he's been dead since 1564. Unless he's secretly a vampire.

[kloudie]

“There’s a passage I got memorized. Ezekiel 25:17. “

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. “

“Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children and I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers and you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!”

“Now… I been sayin’ that shit for years and if you ever heard it, that meant your ass. You’d be dead right now. I never gave much thought to what it meant, I just thought it was a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherfucker before I popped a cap in his ass, but I saw some shit this mornin’ made me think twice. “

“See, now I’m thinking: maybe it means you’re the evil man and I’m the righteous man and Mr. 9 mm here, he’s the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. “

“Or it could mean you’re the righteous man and I’m the shepherd and it’s the world that’s evil and selfish and I’d like that, but that shit ain’t the truth. The truth is you’re the weak and I’m the tyranny of evil men. But I’m tryin’, Ringo. I’m tryin’ real hard to be the shepherd.”