Is Shaman the BEST all-around class in the game?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If I can kill a named with dictate, I can kill any name in the game with more frequent charm breaks.

It would change nothing.

Dictate is a level 60 Enchanter spell. So even if I buy your argument (and I don't), fixing charming would make the server more classic for Enchanters 1-59 and Bards/Druids/Necros 1-60.

I think it would change a lot.

[Snaggles]

^^ 100%

A lot of what makes EQ sims different is the temperment of the players. Sure charm didn’t last as long on live but the people not charming pets just wanted a more chill game. Or they didn’t want to burn tons of peridots in groups. Or nobody expected every enchanter to just do it.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^^ 100%

A lot of what makes EQ sims different is the temperment of the players. Sure charm didn’t last as long on live but the people not charming pets just wanted a more chill game. Or they didn’t want to burn tons of peridots in groups. Or nobody expected every enchanter to just do it.

I'm so sick of hearing this terrible argument.

It amounts to "live Enchanters didn't know how to cast the spells on their spell list" ... despite the fact that there was 20x or more of them playing on live than on here, and they all shared information on the Enchanter forum the same way we share info here. In fact, they did so a lot more, because the game was new, there was no wiki, and there was a lot more info to share.

So either 20x Enchanters were all terrible players who couldn't cast spells on their list ... or our emulator is doing a bad job of emulating (in the one specific area of charm; it does a pretty amazing job almost everywhere else).

[sajbert]

To be fair. Looking at later games such as WoW it was obvious that even the big guilds had little clue as to what they're doing. Vanilla WoW is played in a way today that's vastly different from back then. People solo-farming gold in high level group and raid content, people leveling by pulling and AoEing entire dungeons, people PvP'ing using tactics and items that were previously unused.

Velious era EQ is even older. The grind to 50+ is way more brutal than WoW. I can buy that tactics and understanding of the game were limited to the point that some EQ chanter soloing content wasn't a commonly know about thing.

But if channeling truly is broken on p99 and better than it should be, torpor also shouldn't have been a viable front-tanking method. Is there any evidence for torpor working the way it does?

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm so sick of hearing this terrible argument.

It amounts to "live Enchanters didn't know how to cast the spells on their spell list" ... despite the fact that there was 20x or more of them playing on live than on here, and they all shared information on the Enchanter forum the same way we share info here. In fact, they did so a lot more, because the game was new, there was no wiki, and there was a lot more info to share.

So either 20x Enchanters were all terrible players who couldn't cast spells on their list ... or our emulator is doing a bad job of emulating (in the one specific area of charm; it does a pretty amazing job almost everywhere else).

Or the majority of players in 1999-2002 had varying degrees of garbage ISP’s. Going LD means you need to get a rez, maybe a summon. The amount of coffins being burned in 2024 with everyone having a spare epic cleric is like 100/1 that of on Live.

Also, you said 20x more played on live than P99 despite having 20 less years and esoteric knowledge under their belt. That means the average p99 chanter is a more veteran player with a higher risk threshold. I can’t believe I have to explain this but here we are.

It could also be the fact that enchanters are the best solo class in the game and this server has the concurrent player base of a Cheesecake Factory on Friday night.

It it makes you feel any better I have a Torp sham here and only a level 45 enchanter I gave up because it’s not my kind of character. Doesn’t mean the class isn’t objectively better. Just means it’s not for me.

[loramin]

Look, I 100% agree that players have figured out how to do new things on emulated servers years later. For instance, Plane of Hate tracking simply didn't happen in classic ... but it may well have been possible, and everyone was just too afraid of losing their corpse to do it (we can't know for sure, since we don't have the original spawn points).

But basic stuff, like trying to use your spells (whether it was charm or Torpor), was 100% tried ... and again, it wasn't just tried, it was tried twenty times as much (probably more) than it has been here.

So I'm very sympathetic to "live was different from here" arguments ... just not when it comes to stuff that players obviously would have tried doing in classic ... like charm soloing.

P.S. I was a Shaman on live, and Torpor was definitely a crazy powerful spell back then (I desperately wanted it) ... but because it was so hard to get I wound up skipping straight to the next spell in the line (Quiessence?), so I personally can't speak to Torpor's classic-ness here.

[Toxigen]

loramin big mad he doesnt play enchanter

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or the majority of players in 1999-2002 had varying degrees of garbage ISP’s. Going LD means you need to get a rez, maybe a summon.

Every other soloing class faced the same challenge. By your logic Necros shouldn't have soloed in classic ... but of course they did, along with other solo classes. Meanwhile other "grouping classes" (Warriors, Clerics, etc.) did not magically become soloers here. Only Enchanters went from "mainly grouping, but able to solo" to "why on earth would this class group?" on P99.

I mean look at their epic, then look at the epics of actual soloing classes ... is the snake the epic of a soloing class?

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, you said 20x more played on live than P99 despite having 20 less years and esoteric knowledge under their belt. That means the average p99 chanter is a more veteran player with a higher risk threshold.

Again, you need a P99 "risk threshold" to track Hate, or do something similar. You do not in any way need a risk threshold to try casting the spells on your list.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I gave up because it’s not my kind of character. Doesn’t mean the class isn’t objectively better. Just means it’s not for me.

This has nothing to do with which class is better here. I'll be the first to say that on P99 Enchanter is the most powerful soloing class (though I'd also say that Shaman are the better "all around" class).

What this has to do with is ...

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

loramin big mad he doesnt play enchanter

Almost this. It's more Loramin big mad he'll never get to play a classic Enchanter.

Look, Nilbog has done such an incredible job with this place, and I've gotten to re-live my classic experience all over again with "Loramin 2.0" (my live toon had the same name). But I'm greedy: I want to re-experience other classes I never got a chance to.

Druid? Check. Magician? Check. Cleric? Almost check (he's in his 50's).

All of them are just like I remember the class on live. Enchanter is the only class that isn't, and that means that if I play an Enchanter here I'm not re-living live ... I'm playing with the cheat mode on.

I don't want the cheat mode, I want the classic Enchanter, and I swear if Nilbog brings it back I'll main Enchanter in Green 2.0.

[Snaggles]

It’s pretty easy, don’t stack charisma gear. Or don’t debuff your pet. Or don’t give it -MR gear. Or just don’t charm stuff; the vendors still sell animations and the kunark one still drops.

Or just whine on the forums that your free nostalgia is only 95% accurate.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s pretty easy, don’t stack charisma gear. Or don’t debuff your pet. Or don’t give it -MR gear. Or just don’t charm stuff; the vendors still sell animations and the kunark one still drops.

The -MR part classic players might not have known.

But as for all the rest ... again, it's idiotic to think live Enchanterss didn't try casting the spells on their list, or didn't try wearing Charisma gear (when Verant themselves told them to).