EQNext Discussion

[liveitup1216]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

Have you never played D&D? By the way, the "holy trinity" is not a function of any one system. It's a logical outworking of combat and AI (particularly aggro rules). Players fall into those roles naturally no matter the system. You discover this quickly when you try to design something that actively removes them. Then you realize that by removing the possibility of those roles you have removed almost all player co-operation and combat interaction, and have either no game, a very small narrow one, or another type of game entirely.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

Certainly not the classic PNP games I played in the 80s and 90s.

The trinity is something we learned and then got hooked on from playing EQ and other MMOs. You never needed this type of system in live PNP games because the GM controlling the enemies could act intelligently.

Its weird how we've grown to love a system that was born from problems of online gaming. The entire aggro system is not conducive to authentic RPG gaming, it was something invented to deal with very limited AI.

As long as the AI is of high enough quality (I am skeptical that it can be of this high quality---prove me wrong SOE) than the whole system can go back to more organic PNP style combat systems.

[liveitup1216]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Certainly not the classic PNP games I played in the 80s and 90s.

Wat? D&D invented the holy trinity - Fighter, Cleric, Thief/Magic User. It was less defined due to the GM moderation, as you said, but it was certainly there. Try building a party without a healer and see how far you get, or someone with high AC (tank), or characters that can help control the fight (CC), or dish out serious damage (DPS).

As I said, these roles are natural outcomes of the structure of combat. There are analogues in many games and real life, not just MMOs.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

In that sense, the trinity isn't the problem. The problem is the aggro system and low AI level of the enemies (that dictated the need for an artificial trinity in the first place).

[liveitup1216]

I've been in a session for over a year now at level 8 with no healer at all. We do have a paladin and a fighter though, 3.5 btw.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

Well, according to their current rhetoric, they are going to "have both". This is just not possible, as I've pointed out, and as they will discover when they try to actually build what they are currently painting in the sky with broad strokes of hyperbole.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wat? D&D invented the holy trinity - Warrior, Priest, Thief/Magic User. It was less defined due to the GM moderation, as you said, but it was certainly there. Try building a party without a healer and see how far you get, or someone with high AC (tank), or characters that can help control the fight (CC), or dish out serious damage (DPS).

As I said, these roles are natural outcomes of the structure of combat. There are analogues in many games and real life, not just MMOs.

I agree with you...I think we are actually saying very similar things just confusing some of the vocabulary.

[liveitup1216]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

In that sense, the trinity isn't the problem. The problem is the aggro system and low AI level of the enemies (that dictated the need for an artificial trinity in the first place).

I agree, I was responding to Tolkien saying removing the roles kills the system.

I'll agree the game hinges on whether or not this AI is what it says it is, but thats the only issue I foresee with the game. To say they're just lying or that it flat out won't work is just lazy.