religion

[Toofliss]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, not in the least. To believe such a claim to be true, we would need huge, irrefutable, massive, undisputed evidence.

You simply contemplating The Big Questions in life, looking carefully at the universe and thinking, "Hmm, this seems designed!" is not enough evidence. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it's illogical and irrational to definitively believe that this is the case.

When I started out, it wasn't me looking for design. I started by just observing all of the things taking place. Orbit of the planets, cells and building blocks of life, physics and all of the natural laws, you name it. Countless months just contemplating questions that came to mind after observing the world in which we live.

After a while I started to look at how perfect it all was. While I don't believe anyone can perfectly calculate the odds of all of these laws, all of these coincidences, I know that the odds are ridiculous. When I think about the probability of all of these things just happening by chance, I rule that as impossible. When I removed the impossible, what remains is the truth (in my mind of course).

When I came to the conclusion that a creator of some sort must exist then I started going back to revisit the various religions. Could any of them have any truth? Keep in mind the first 3 decades of my life said absolutely not. I'm currently a Christian - probably a toddler, maybe even an infant in my faith. If I'm unable to reconcile some of my current struggles with the faith then I'll move on and look at other religions for answers.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by Toofliss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So how about a super intelligent entity being the creator of it all? Is that rational and logical to you? Remove divine and supernatural -- would you conclude that evidence points toward these rules being established by some entity?

Or the ship has already sailed and no matter how hard you look at this scenario, someone putting all these laws and rules into place is simply impossible?

That's stillman explanation without evidence. It's akin to claiming that Thor exists because lightning.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's stillman explanation without evidence. It's akin to claiming that Thor exists because lightning.

Still an.

[Toofliss]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's stillman explanation without evidence. It's akin to claiming that Thor exists because lightning.

Some might look at your analogy, "Thor exists because lightning" and be able to look past some of the holes (faith) and believe it.

You are able to look past some of the holes in evolution and believe it. Countless pages have danced around this very point. There are gaps in the theory of evolution, but some are willing to look past those gaps. I know, because I did too...for a long time.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Toofliss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure why I came back to read countless more pages of shit slinging. At the end of the day there are some people who remain open minded and others who have closed down to opposing thoughts.

I stated many pages back that I've spent many years as someone who was confident there was no God. My schooling (college included) led me to an arrogance that we as a species were just that fucking good that we could figure it all out (or even worse, we had it figured out). Since that time I went through some serious searching, doubting, and looking at things for myself.

While the die hard posters here likely won't be convinced one way or another, I'd simply ask the others that you give my view a bit of a look. Take some time to be quiet. Look with an open mind and a desire to understand everything that happens all around us. From the smallest functions of life to the biggest feats of the universe. Take time to digest everything that is taking place.

Can you honestly still say all of the rules, all of the amazing things that operate in harmony, and the wonderful interconnection between all of this that makes our world possible is all just coincidence? The incredible details with such small tolerances for error just happen to be exactly what they needed to be?

If you're able to make that decision, then I see no other word to describe your view than faith. When I look at the exact same amazing coincidences, it all points to an overwhelming abundance of evidence. It wasn't until I was truly willing to challenge what I had been taught the first few decades of my life that I started to see things differently.

Maybe you'll see things in a different light, maybe you won't. I felt I owed it to myself to explore all options, even if they seemed improbable (hell, impossible when I started). I don't post in threads like this to try and prove you guys wrong. Instead, maybe someone else is lurking and perhaps they're someone like me.

Now you may continue with the shit slinging -- if you want to contact me, private message or in game works best. I won't be back to view countless pages of attacks.

Im just curious but why haven't you found that the pursuit of knowledge and science is the best way to find the answers you are looking for?

The way you talk about it, Toofliss. You make it sound as though you think the universe is a marvelous place and that there is many things to be discovered about it.

yet you seem to reach to the church, who have offered no evidence while it insists you stop searching for the truth and simply have faith, to wait to die, to find the answers to whats out there.

I am only saying the truth that you seek cannot be found by a person who knows nothing more than whats outside of his church.

If you want the answers, I would wager the people actually going to space are the people that you should be looking to.

Exploring your inner self is as important as the universe but when claiming to have real concrete answers as to where we are from or where we are going, you can listen to people who have evidence to back their claims, or people who ask you to simply believe them.

for myself, I choose the former.

If it isn't a coincidence, maybe in a thousand years science will figure out what the answer is. Maybe not. Religion, barring the arrival of the lord and savior (or whatever the fuck it is) will never.

[Toofliss]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Im just curious but why haven't you found that the pursuit of knowledge and science is the best way to find the answers you are looking for?

The way you talk about it, Toofliss. You make it sound as though you think the universe is a marvelous place and that there is many things to be discovered about it.

yet you seem to reach to the church, who have offered no evidence while it insists you stop searching for the truth and simply have faith, to wait to die, to find the answers to whats out there.

I am only saying the truth that you seek cannot be found by a person who knows nothing more than whats outside of his church.

If you want the answers, I would wager the people actually going to space are the people that you should be looking to.

Exploring your inner self is as important as the universe but when claiming to have real concrete answers as to where we are from or where we are going, you can listen to people who have evidence to back their claims, or people who ask you to simply believe them.

for myself, I choose the former.

If it isn't a coincidence, maybe in a thousand years science will figure out what the answer is. Maybe not. Religion, barring the arrival of the lord and savior (or whatever the fuck it is) will never.

The universe IS a marvelous place. So much so, that it's so incredibly perfect in so many different aspects, that it became statistically impossible in my mind that it came about through chance. I didn't look to religion to come to this realization. I looked carefully at the world around me. Scientists used to do this same thing. Look at the world around them and come up with their own hypothesis on why something was. I chose to do the same thing rather than believing what I was told. Challenge everything and look at ALL options.

AFTER I came to that realization, that someone/thing put all these rules into place, then I started looking for more answers. Having given 10+ years to definitively believing there was no God (or super intelligent creator), I figure I deserve to at least give a little segment of my life to investigating the other possibility. Mind you that this was the furthest thing from possible in my earlier years.

Science wants to rule out a creator because we simply can't wrap our minds around it being a possibility. It's a tough pill to swallow. Equally tough to swallow is the concept that with the odds being ridiculously against all of this happening by chance, that we are the biggest powerball winners ever.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by Toofliss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The universe IS a marvelous place. So much so, that it's so incredibly perfect in so many different aspects, that it became statistically impossible in my mind that it came about through chance. I didn't look to religion to come to this realization. I looked carefully at the world around me. Scientists used to do this same thing. Look at the world around them and come up with their own hypothesis on why something was. I chose to do the same thing rather than believing what I was told. Challenge everything and look at ALL options.

AFTER I came to that realization, that someone/thing put all these rules into place, then I started looking for more answers. Having given 10+ years to definitively believing there was no God (or super intelligent creator), I figure I deserve to at least give a little segment of my life to investigating the other possibility. Mind you that this was the furthest thing from possible in my earlier years.

Science wants to rule out a creator because we simply can't wrap our minds around it being a possibility. It's a tough pill to swallow. Equally tough to swallow is the concept that with the odds being ridiculously against all of this happening by chance, that we are the biggest powerball winners ever.

There's that word again.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's that word again.

Really? Ignoring the fact that I pointed out a outrageous amounts of "peer-reviewed" scientific theories that are later proven to be either completely wrong, or just wtf were people thinking with these theories? The ones I gave are only the tip of the iceberg. You really think there isn't any fallacies just based off the fact so many scientific theories have been discredited over the know history of people creating scientific theories? This one is just right no matter what? Even more considering the amount of evidence to prove on the contrary? I have to say, at least the one thing God has going for him, he has never had anyone that can prove he doesn't exist, which the belief in God has been around since the discovery of known history.

Basically, if I was a betting man, in inconsistency among people that are supposedly "the most intelligent people" would not be getting my money based off of historical inaccuracy.

[Toofliss]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's that word again.

You keep trying to misconstrue my posts.

(powerball) Your chance of winning the lottery on a single ticket is one in 175 million.

Oh shit, I used the word chance. Would you prefer me to substitute the word odds?

The odds of all this world coming about in the perfect combination is 1 in a hugeeeeeeeeeeee fucking number. So what is that chance?

[Archalen]

Originally Posted by Toofliss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure why I came back to read countless more pages of shit slinging. At the end of the day there are some people who remain open minded and others who have closed down to opposing thoughts.

I stated many pages back that I've spent many years as someone who was confident there was no God. My schooling (college included) led me to an arrogance that we as a species were just that fucking good that we could figure it all out (or even worse, we had it figured out). Since that time I went through some serious searching, doubting, and looking at things for myself.

While the die hard posters here likely won't be convinced one way or another, I'd simply ask the others that you give my view a bit of a look. Take some time to be quiet. Look with an open mind and a desire to understand everything that happens all around us. From the smallest functions of life to the biggest feats of the universe. Take time to digest everything that is taking place.

Can you honestly still say all of the rules, all of the amazing things that operate in harmony, and the wonderful interconnection between all of this that makes our world possible is all just coincidence? The incredible details with such small tolerances for error just happen to be exactly what they needed to be?

If you're able to make that decision, then I see no other word to describe your view than faith. When I look at the exact same amazing coincidences, it all points to an overwhelming abundance of evidence. It wasn't until I was truly willing to challenge what I had been taught the first few decades of my life that I started to see things differently.

Maybe you'll see things in a different light, maybe you won't. I felt I owed it to myself to explore all options, even if they seemed improbable (hell, impossible when I started). I don't post in threads like this to try and prove you guys wrong. Instead, maybe someone else is lurking and perhaps they're someone like me.

Now you may continue with the shit slinging -- if you want to contact me, private message or in game works best. I won't be back to view countless pages of attacks.

You seem to have a true investigative mind. I would say the most rational conclusion to "what does it all mean; how did it all start" is to humbly admit that "I don't know."

When you see beauty in the world, you can feel that emotion in the context of the inspiring mystery that the universe is. You don't have to fill that mystery with "it must be this or that god, and this or that religion." It took a lot of courage for me to finally admit that I would probably never find the big answers.

My view is that there will always be mysteries that the scientific method will probably never have an intelligible model for. I even hope so. However, it doesn't seem particularly useful to immediately fill gaps in knowledge with supernatural ideas.