And I raaaaaan, I raaaan so far awaaaayyyy

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is irrelevant. The point of FTE is not to speculate on how seconds would have matter to change things, because in most instances FTE comes down to a matter of seconds.

I disagree. The inquiry itself is relevant, even if it ultimately bears no impact. The point is that the inquiry might produce results. As you said, most instances come down to seconds, but what if it does not? That bears investigation.

We must remember that rules themselves do not define fairness. They promote fairness. This a key distinction. Both the rules and GM rulings are made in the spirit of fairness and equity, not a slavish devotion to the letter of the law.

I believe my question is relevant here because what if the FE puller was 15 seconds away? What if the situation was such that, had TMO not been present, that CT would have indisputably reset his aggro list before the puller could reach the target?

As I see it, this creates two scenarios that bear thought. It's a policy question. Do we stick to strict FTE rules where sniping is encouraged by the rules? Or, do we allow arbitrators to examine a situation to assess intent and apply the principles of fairness?

In this case, if CT would have reset before the puller could reach the target, it seems within the notion of fairness that TMO engaged in good faith (After all, they did have the 1st DT/engage) and that FE engaged in an effort to snipe. FTE is a tool. It is an objective standard, but it is prone to uncertainty at times as this scenario so aptly illustrates.

Clearly, there is a need for a subjective review from time to time. Rules serve fairness. Equity is not a slave to black letter law.

[hatelore]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Question: Assume TMO was not near CT when Scorchin was DT'd. Was it more likely than not that CT would have reset before any puller could have gotten on the aggro list after Scorchin's DT?

In short, had TMO waited ~two more seconds to engage, would Scorchin's aggro have been erased from the kill due to mob reset?

If he fully reset, and went back to banging his scratching post, then yes. Since the first encounter list ends after he is dt'ed and not re-aggroed.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by hatelore [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If he fully reset, and went back to banging his scratching post, then yes. Since the first encounter list ends after he is dt'ed and not re-aggroed.

Derp, so we engage a mob take the first dt and you honestly think Scorchin thought he had a chance to pull it? The wool is over your eyes friend. There is nothing honest about this pull. It was clearly an FTE snipe attempt there was 0 chance of a pull.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing stopping CT from being pulled to a raid force - if that is what Sominus said he was doing, anyone's opinion of the cost/benefit of pulling CT is irrelevant. There was a legitimate raid force waiting...it is of zero consequence that TMO engaged it while Sominus was pulling it.

Any rule implemented will have downsides to it. A rule is maintained because it is deemed (by whoever is in authority as such) that the UPSIDES outweigh the DOWNSIDES. The upsides and the downsides coexist. You can place parameters on the rule, such as defining what 'kiting' or 'delaying' is relative to 'engaging, but I fail to see how in this case there was any such parameter put in place other than Ephi's personal opinion about how to interpret what is and is not a 'legitimate' FTE. This is not a parameter, this is a complete reinterpretation of the rule. FTE is first on agro list, given a 'raid force' ready to engage - PERIOD. If another guild ends up killing it, it simply doesn't matter. There have been countless instances of this.

All you are doing is setting the stage for the next conflict, you are not fixing anything. Next time the raid force will just charge TMO instead of trying to pull him, because apparently that is the only relevant factor in this decision.

Please, explain the method he was using to pull CT to your raid.

Seems he got FUCKING DT'd, thus wasn't pulling shit to anything.

[Autotune]

"BRB GUYS! GONNA GO SOLO PULL CT TO OUR CAMP!"

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"BRB GUYS! GONNA GO SOLO PULL CT TO OUR CAMP!"

Like i said, we had someone ready to pick it up after the DT.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by radditsu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like i said, we had someone ready to pick it up after the DT.

really? cause he never even attempted it.

So either you weren't pulling and going for an FTE snipe

or

Your "ready to pick it up guy" was asleep.

[Eccezan]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please, explain the method he was using to pull CT to your raid.

Seems he got FUCKING DT'd, thus wasn't pulling shit to anything.

this.

Tanthallas, There have been countless rulings where DT removes person from FTE list, why it left the DT'd person on the FTE list here is the real question.

Your argument might be given more validity if there was ANY other FE on the aggro list at all to support any claim to engage/pull to anywhere in the zone.

Unfortunately, you are left with nothing but a poor attempt at an FTE snipe ending up in a DT in full view of a GM. Lets see some more rules lawyer attempts tho!

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[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Eccezan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this.

Tanthallas, There have been countless rulings where DT removes person from FTE list, why it left the DT'd person on the FTE list here is the real question.

Your argument might be given more validity if there was ANY other FE on the aggro list at all to support any claim to engage/pull to anywhere in the zone.

Unfortunately, you are left with nothing but a poor attempt at an FTE snipe ending up in a DT in full view of a GM. Lets see some more rules lawyer attempts tho!

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How fucking moronic can you get.

DT removes person from FTE list if the mob resets, of course. The entire basis of this conversation is that the LOGS traditionally used show that CT was NOT reset between when Scorchin pulled and when TMO engaged. This is not an instance of kiting or delaying an engage. Hence Scorchin has FTE - given a raid force which was present - and TMO simply bum rushed CT and killed him regardless.

IF FTE shout was in place, this would be a CLEAR CUT FTE and TMO WOULD NOT HAVE engaged. That is the problem here.

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Tanthallas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IF FTE shout was in place, this would be a CLEAR CUT FTE and TMO WOULD NOT HAVE engaged. That is the problem here.

Bottom line. Go jack off in the corner Alarti.