Its time to go Red. Pop on the rise. Noobs protected. GM Events. Put your story here!

[stormlord]

The danger with adding too many carebear features to the pvp server is that it becomes better than the blue server for almost everybody. See, I was calling for extra experience gain to compensate for the increased deaths in pvp. That makes sense. But if you start giving other handouts, eventually players will level faster and easier on the pvp servers than they do on blue. So why player on blue? They'll come to red.

Greifing was stupid. I like that there're mechanics in place to reduce it. But the change to experience gain in groups is dramatic. Basically, it means when you add an additional member to the group you're only losing a very small amount of experience or none at all. This means the additional member only has to lift a finger to make it worthwhile. If none is lost they can afk and it won't matter unless someone active wants to join and there's no room. By contrast, the old experience system reduced the experience much more with additional members, thus requiring them to do more work to make it worthwhile. The 6th member was free, but the others were not.

The experience change does make inviting new members much less discriminatory, since you're not really losing anything if they contribute even a fraction of what they're capable of. It's nice. Still, this is a huge change that will pull a lot of blue over to red, irrespective of its pvp orientation.

The changes are nice in some ways, but make me squirm a little. Not trying to be mean. Just remember, pvp is supposed to be a challenge. Compensating players is ok. Extra challenge means extra reward. Extra experience is good. Just be careful it's not easier than blue - if it rewards too much.

[tristantio]

Typically bad experiences outweigh good ones for the majority of people - I think all the red boons (bonus xp, LNS policy etc.) are almost necessary to incentivize players who run into those bad experiences (ganks, twinks, /ooc rudeness).

Having a bad night on red (many ganks) can leave a huge sourness on someone's view of the server.

As the population is around 300 and growing, I think it's at a pretty good balance at the moment (there isn't a big risk, imho, of all of blue suddenly flooding over to red).

Also, while not classic, I think the group situation on red is more akin to what original EQ should have been anyways (in very few cases does having a 6 person group cause the group to get xp 6 times as fasts, hence the prevalence of solo classes that can grind groupless on blue).

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by tristantio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Typically bad experiences outweigh good ones for the majority of people - I think all the red boons (bonus xp, LNS policy etc.) are almost necessary to incentivize players who run into those bad experiences (ganks, twinks, /ooc rudeness).

Having a bad night on red (many ganks) can leave a huge sourness on someone's view of the server.

As the population is around 300 and growing, I think it's at a pretty good balance at the moment (there isn't a big risk, imho, of all of blue suddenly flooding over to red).

Also, while not classic, I think the group situation on red is more akin to what original EQ should have been anyways (in very few cases does having a 6 person group cause the group to get xp 6 times as fasts, hence the prevalence of solo classes that can grind groupless on blue).

We're not just talking about some conventional bonus to experience gain.

As I understand it the experience system works as it did (or does) on live on the progression server. On normal live servers experience was cut, thus demanding that group members contributed a minimal amount. Other games have used group exp systems similar to what's on the progression server on live. I was first introduced to this form of group exp gain in Shadowbane. I probably saw it in other MMORPGs too, but didn't know about this back then. Basically, if you made 200 exp on a kill solo, you'd make 200 with additional group members. So it only made sense to add additonal members since there was no loss.

When EQ first released, it cut the experience everytime a new member joined, something like this:
Solo: 200 experience
2nd member: 100/2 = 50 + 0.4 = 50.4% = 100.8 exp
3rd member: 100/3 = 33% + 0.8 = 33.8% = 67.6 exp
4th member: 100/4 = 25% + 1.2 = 26.2% = 52.4 exp
5th member 100/5 = 20% + 1.6 = 21.6% = 43.2 exp
6th member 100/6 = 16% + 2 = 18% = 36 exp

* It may have even been less. Back then, the group bonus was very VERY small. I think the thinking was most of the bonus from grouping came from dying less and having ready access to veterans/knowledge
* Note this assumes each member will supply at least an equal amount contribution as yourself. Ofc, not every class would add an equal amount to the rate you kill monsters. Some classes would be more redundant too. For example, if you're a cleric and invite a cleric instead of a warrior, you're ineffectively using your healing. And if you're a rogue and invite a mage, you'll gain aggro from the pet and won't have anything to heal yourself, not mention being a bad tank, thus preventing you from fully contributing - you'll slow down exp for the mage

Thus, when you invite a new member, they MUST perform at a high level to make inviting them worthwhile. If they afk a lot or are severely gimped or do not supply as much healing or dps or tanking as you like then you'd typically want to invite someone else or disband them, as you'll make exp faster without them.

As EQ aged, it cut the exp less for each additional member. In 2001 there was a revamp to the group exp which added a bonus up to 20% for the 6th member (on top of the division which already happened). Later in EQ's life, the bonus rose up to something like 80% more for the 6th member. The 6th member was also free.

What's different about the exp system on the live progression server and on the red server is that it doesn't cut the experience when you invite a new member, or if it does it's a very trivial amount. For example, in the old system, a 6th member would be 100/5 = 20 PLUS a bonus. An 80% bonus would increase 20 to 36. So if you got 200 experience per kill solo then you'd get 200*0.36 = 72 with a 6th member and a 80% bonus. In this new system, you might get 150 per kill with the 6th member, or even 200, if there's no cut. This means there's far less expectations placed on additional group members; potentially none. So you don't care if they're a ranger or a afk a lot. Their performance only matters if your group is full and a more active or better player is available.

This change means minimum REQUIRED expectations are lowered. This I think fudnamentally changes the game. It also greatly reduces the value of solo-classes like druids or necromancers, since they're far better off joining groups than soloing. If there's no exp cut, a 6th member would mean potentially 6x more experience than soloing. That's substantial and means a player is better playing a group-based class like a warrior/cleric/enchanter/rogue/monk. It means soloing is no longer a viable path to progress since grouping is up to 6x faster.

[tristantio]

Red has a consistent 50% bonus to xp, and then in parties its +50% per member that joins the team (but you're splitting the xp with them when they join).

As I understand it (and maybe I'm wrong) it goes like this:

Players : XP Value : Gained XP
1 : 600 : 600 * 1.5 = 900
2 : 300 : 300 * 2 = 600
3 : 200 : 200 * 2.5 = 500
4 : 150 : 150 * 3 = 450
5 : 120 : 120 * 3.5 = 420
6 : 100 : 100 * 4 = 400

Assuming a 6 person group or a solo person kill at the same rate, a solo person would come out ahead by almost 2x the gain. However, if 6 people can kill at least 3 times as fast, there's no question which is most efficient.

On blue the xp would require (even with a paltry 10% bonus at the end) that the group kill about 6 times as fast as a soloer (tough when comparing vs a quader or a nec).

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by tristantio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Red has a consistent 50% bonus to xp, and then in parties its +50% per member that joins the team (but you're splitting the xp with them when they join).

As I understand it (and maybe I'm wrong) it goes like this:

Players : XP Value : Gained XP
1 : 600 : 600 * 1.5 = 900
2 : 300 : 300 * 2 = 600
3 : 200 : 200 * 2.5 = 500
4 : 150 : 150 * 3 = 450
5 : 120 : 120 * 3.5 = 420
6 : 100 : 100 * 4 = 400

Assuming a 6 person group or a solo person kill at the same rate, a solo person would come out ahead by almost 2x the gain. However, if 6 people can kill at least 3 times as fast, there's no question which is most efficient.

On blue the xp would require (even with a paltry 10% bonus at the end) that the group kill about 6 times as fast as a soloer (tough when comparing vs a quader or a nec).

Given what you show below...

Players : XP Value : Gained XP
1 : 600 : 600 * 1.5 = 900
2 : 300 : 300 * 2 = 600
3 : 200 : 200 * 2.5 = 500
4 : 150 : 150 * 3 = 450
5 : 120 : 120 * 3.5 = 420
6 : 100 : 100 * 4 = 400

....the 6th member provides 6x the killing power, resulting 400 * 6x = 2400. That's a 266% bonus over soloing, meaning the system is cutting experience when you invite new members. If it weren't cutting experience then it'd be 900 * 6x = 5400.

But what I was stating in my post still stands. The required contribution from each additional member is lessened versus the older system. With a 2nd member, for example, experience is cut from 900 to 600, meaning the additional member has to contribute at least 50% of your killing power to make themselves worthwhile. This means if your killing power is 10 then they must provide at least 5. This is 600 x 1.5 = 900. This will make you break even versus if you were just soloing. If they contribute the same killing power as yourself then you'll make 33% more experience.

Note that a full group has a 266% bonus over soloing, meaning soloing becomes a much less attractive form of progression, since I doubt soloers kill things 266% faster by themselves. This reduces the value of rolling a solo-capable class like a necromancer or ranger.

Again, note that the cut in experience is exactly what caused players to heavily discriminate when they invited new members. Is the new member gimp? Are they low level (assuming the group exp gain formulas do not account for the level makeup of the group)? Does the new member afk a lot? Are they reliable? Because if that new member even so much as sneezed more than once, you'd lose experience by adding them.

But if what you say is true it's not as dire as I was suggesting. The probems are still there though. The situation on the progression server on live had another concern too but I'm not recalling at the moment. It was a thread on the live forums started by a necromancer I believe. He/she didn't like the huge group exp gain versus soloing.

EDIT: One potential way to resolve some of this is to allow group members to get experience from each other even if they're not in the same zone or not playing with each other. This means you can group and get the experience bonus while still soloing. I imagine a group of necromancers might do it, to not use their dots ineffectively, since so much of their dots are wasted in gropus when the monster dies long before the dot wears off. This only works if the cut isn't too big because afking is a very common thing when soloing. The advantage to soloing is yo ucan afk whenever you want and play at your own pace.

[jwargod]

Originally Posted by tristantio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Typically bad experiences outweigh good ones for the majority of people - I think all the red boons (bonus xp, LNS policy etc.) are almost necessary to incentivize players who run into those bad experiences (ganks, twinks, /ooc rudeness).

Having a bad night on red (many ganks) can leave a huge sourness on someone's view of the server.

As the population is around 300 and growing, I think it's at a pretty good balance at the moment (there isn't a big risk, imho, of all of blue suddenly flooding over to red).

Also, while not classic, I think the group situation on red is more akin to what original EQ should have been anyways (in very few cases does having a 6 person group cause the group to get xp 6 times as fasts, hence the prevalence of solo classes that can grind groupless on blue).

The population was hitting 400 and a little above especially on primetime, about 2 months ago.. Something happened where its now 300 or less at the same time.

[tristantio]

Velious was announced (and then subsequently cancelled).

I know a lot of red traffic was blue players who were capped out (or tired of blue overpopulation) that I saw migrate back to blue when news of Velious dropped.

I'd guess they'll trickle back over waiting for 8/2.

[Swish]

If you're getting continually ganked while leveling on red the chances are you're in Mistmoore, Unrest or a well trodden leveling spot on blue. That's where you'll find a fungi twink.

Plenty of other places to be. I was with a group in Upper Guk and we must have done 2-3 hours in there without any trouble. The occasional person going past us who was out of pvp range but that was it.

[tristantio]

Well, they want to encourage grouping/server population, so it has to be very appealing vs soloing given the risk of groups being ganked by twinks (or by own group members).

I know red in the past had larger bonuses (applied to all xp) than what they have now, but the group bonus seems the best to me (although I've never grouped on red yet - so far 52.5 all solo, but I tend to afk a lot).

[Swish]

People keep talking about a low red population...I think it was early 2011 that blue had about 450-500 players and nobody complained here that I remember.

When they switched off the old XP bonus on red the pop dropped down to 65-70 and Red Dawn which had the majority of leveling red players fell away. After one patch it was switched back on, a lot of RD players returned before it was said that it was a mistake and turned off again. That caused the guild to disband.

Red needs an XP bonus, because:-

1. The server is top heavy and if you want real pvp you need to get there.
2. People trying red don't want to repeat leveling to 60 on blue. Cutting the time it takes is a decent incentive.
3. The XP bonus in groups brings people together and helps new players make friends. Typically you aren't twinked from head to toe starting on red, you're going to need a little help from some pals.