let's get real about item loot

[HippoNipple]

With that said some of these suggestions on item loot make me sick. Durability, random loot, making everything no drop or bind on equip, terrible... just terrible.

There are a lot of people that will join teams99 because they are just bored to death of red99. It isn't just becasue of Nihilum, it has been around too long with nothing new. Servers get old. If teams opens up and is too close to red99 it will be a shame. There is a lot of hard work from devs going into this and the new server has to have its own identity. Any unclassic mechanics thrown in to water down the looting system would be a shame.

The two big differences for this server are going to be teams and item loot. It is very important both of these are done right and now watered down.

[Vexenu]

Again we have old RZ people not understanding the different dynamic between FFA and Teams.

Item loot adds a lot more to an FFA server than it does to Teams. There is no reputation to worry about on a Teams server. There is no one with a "PK rep" who has a lot of sworn enemies from killing people. On Teams, everyone who isn't on your team is automatically your sworn enemy and will attack you on sight. The only rep that matters on a Teams server who is is dangerous/skilled and who is not.

Teams server will thrive or fail based on two factors alone: 1) Server population and 2) Team balance.

Item loot does nothing to help either of these things, and a lot to hurt both. Item loot means fewer players will try the server, and a higher number of those that do will be rage quitting when they lose items. Item loot also means the winning team will continue to get progressively stronger while the loser gets weaker.

I have yet to see a compelling argument for item loot that was not transparently an effort by the poster to relive their nostalgia for RZ and various item loot emus, all of which had abysmally low pops.

[Retti_]

Originally Posted by Lowlife [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

as he returns to his keyboard with a cup of coffee at 6% hp, spilling hot java all over her legs as he frantically tries to access the keyboard his cat just walked onto.

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[HippoNipple]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again we have old RZ people not understanding the different dynamic between FFA and Teams.

Item loot adds a lot more to an FFA server than it does to Teams. There is no reputation to worry about on a Teams server. There is no one with a "PK rep" who has a lot of sworn enemies from killing people. On Teams, everyone who isn't on your team is automatically your sworn enemy and will attack you on sight. The only rep that matters on a Teams server who is is dangerous/skilled and who is not.

Teams server will thrive or fail based on two factors alone: 1) Server population and 2) Team balance.

Item loot does nothing to help either of these things, and a lot to hurt both. Item loot means fewer players will try the server, and a higher number of those that do will be rage quitting when they lose items. Item loot also means the winning team will continue to get progressively stronger while the loser gets weaker.

I have yet to see a compelling argument for item loot that was not transparently an effort by the poster to relive their nostalgia for RZ and various item loot emus, all of which had abysmally low pops.

red99 has had the misfortune of having two pretty bad pvp rule systems. One hurt the player that died and didn't reward the victor. The current one does nothing. The only reason to PvP on the current server is to contest raids but that has been avoided by one zerg controlling PvE uncontested.

The fun in pvp from 1-51 with this system has been limited and cheapened. The community has ruined pvp from 52-60 on their own but it is hard to say any community with this population wouldn't be similar. It is natural instinct to do what you can to further your character, and not devote your time as a martyr.

Teams and item loot is an attempt to fix both of those problems. We have tried to allow the community to make the current system fun and it has failed for a lot of us. I'm ready for some server rules that don't leave it up to the community - loot and teams.

[Vexenu]

There is an inherent need to PvP with a Teams ruleset, something that isn't true with FFA rules. This is why item loot makes more sense with FFA - it gives you a reason to kill players.

No item loot + FFA = Killing people for no benefit, simply to kill them. Degenerates to pure griefing over time, especially for sub-50 PvP.

Item loot + FFA = Killing people for potential gain, with a risk/reward dynamic. Creates a culture of brigands/PKs and anti-PKs. A fun ruleset given a large enough population to sustain it.

No item loot + Teams = Killing your enemies on sight, otherwise they will kill you. Fighting for survival and zone control.

Item loot + Teams = Same as above, except the winning team gets stronger over time and the loser gets weaker. Encourages imbalance.

Item loot simply adds nothing desirable to the Teams ruleset. It's an FFA PvP rule that doesn't belong on a Teams server. Further, there doesn't currently exist a large enough demand for an item loot server to sustain a reasonably high population on one. This isn't 1999-2000 where we have half a million EQ players to draw from for RZ, enabling it to sustain itself. We've got a few thousand players at best, the vast majority of whom aren't inclined to PvP at all, much less item loot.

In the end the argument is as simple as it is irrefutable: Teams needs population more than anything else. Item loot significantly reduces population. Therefore, item loot is a bad idea for Teams.

[Lowlife]

polling of blue players seemed to indicate there was a greater willingness to try a red server that maintained an item loot rule set than one without. now, that doesn't mean that item loot would also cause a greater and quicker atrophy of the player base, as people rage their way into attrition.

one positive from item loot is that 3 years after velious drops you'll still have something to "do". as in, taking a phase spider carapace from someone.

[Rheon]

Put Item loot on red99 end of discussion! it will be RZ all over again..[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Personally not a fan of the Teams server play style..i'd prefer Red with Itemloot over a Teams server 100%.

P.s I remember Rienne and most of the other Facultas Utrimque players pretty vividly, they were some of the most fearsome PvPers around at that time, many battles fought against them. Not all of the best PvPers were casters that's for sure.

[Kergan]

Originally Posted by Rheon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Put Item loot on red99 end of discussion! it will be RZ all over again..[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Personally not a fan of the Teams server play style..i'd prefer Red with Itemloot over a Teams server 100%.

P.s I remember Rienne and most of the other Facultas Utrimque players pretty vividly, they were some of the most fearsome PvPers around at that time, many battles fought against them. Not all of the best PvPers were casters that's for sure.

FU was definitely a small elitist guild. I never joined them, choosing to stay in tB until I left for Sullon Zek, but I had a lot of respect for guys like Lugoj, Rienne, Nilear, etc.

I don't think the ruletset will have much if any effect on the server now. The 52+ game is pretty much a choice between Nihilum and doing nothing, although Red Dawn has started to do some raiding. The moment of truth is coming for them though, as the people excited about raiding Fear/Hate now will quickly lust for greater loots. Either they stay and help push Red Dawn into higher end raiding or they'll bail for Nihilum. The low population of R99 makes it very difficult to have two power guilds, and I think until we see a sustained 250-300 people things wont change much.

[HippoNipple]

Originally Posted by Rheon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Put Item loot on red99 end of discussion! it will be RZ all over again..[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Personally not a fan of the Teams server play style..i'd prefer Red with Itemloot over a Teams server 100%.

P.s I remember Rienne and most of the other Facultas Utrimque players pretty vividly, they were some of the most fearsome PvPers around at that time, many battles fought against them. Not all of the best PvPers were casters that's for sure.

Already stated that they won't put in item loot on red99 right now, for obvious reasons.

[Kastro]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is an inherent need to PvP with a Teams ruleset, something that isn't true with FFA rules. This is why item loot makes more sense with FFA - it gives you a reason to kill players.

No item loot + FFA = Killing people for no benefit, simply to kill them. Degenerates to pure griefing over time, especially for sub-50 PvP.

Item loot + FFA = Killing people for potential gain, with a risk/reward dynamic. Creates a culture of brigands/PKs and anti-PKs. A fun ruleset given a large enough population to sustain it.

No item loot + Teams = Killing your enemies on sight, otherwise they will kill you. Fighting for survival and zone control.

Item loot + Teams = Same as above, except the winning team gets stronger over time and the loser gets weaker. Encourages imbalance.

Item loot simply adds nothing desirable to the Teams ruleset. It's an FFA PvP rule that doesn't belong on a Teams server. Further, there doesn't currently exist a large enough demand for an item loot server to sustain a reasonably high population on one. This isn't 1999-2000 where we have half a million EQ players to draw from for RZ, enabling it to sustain itself. We've got a few thousand players at best, the vast majority of whom aren't inclined to PvP at all, much less item loot.

In the end the argument is as simple as it is irrefutable: Teams needs population more than anything else. Item loot significantly reduces population. Therefore, item loot is a bad idea for Teams.

That is where I believe you may be misinformed....

X Teaming Did not start on Tallon Zek or Vallon Zek until AFTER item loot was removed...

On VZTZ Heresy did not form a guild with the top TZT group untill AFTER Item loot was removed... On VZTZ most planar was tradable... so it was NOT a race to no drop...

Bring in Firona Vie Rules for loot + Item loot will defeat the Zerg Syndrome, and the X team syndrome... because it will make it impossible to keep those alliances together... If HPT, or Xantille could Gank another Nihlium Members let say... Fungi Tunic... And that member had just pissed them off... They probably would... and the working together bit would end...