Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only person who isn't reading the thread is you Loramin lol. I explained multiple times how mana can save your life as a Shaman. Please READ THE THREAD, I will not be rehashing it just because you are projecting your lack of reading on to me[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And again:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BarbShaman was created by Siberious:

02:50, 21 July 2022‎ Siberious (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,038 bytes) (+1,038)‎ . . (Created page with "startMageloProfile * Name: BarbShaman * Class: Shaman * Race: Barbarian * Level: 60 * Guild: * Religion: * AltOrTestChar: No * BaseSTR: 103 * BaseSTA: 105 * BaseAGI: 82 * ...")

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Bobo (previously https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blueanthswife ) was created by Arbiterblixen:

03:10, 21 July 2022 Arbiterblixen (Talk | contribs) moved page Magelo Blue[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]anthswife to Magelo Blue:Bobo (revert)

03:10, 21 July 2022‎ Arbiterblixen (Talk | contribs)‎ m . . (1,044 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Arbiterblixen moved page Magelo Blue[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]anthswife to Magelo Blue:Bobo) (undo)

Siberious posted his magelo on page 7, and Arbiterblixen posted his magelo on page 6. Both of those pages were before my post on page 8. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Danth]

Comparison of lower-end characters continued:

I logged the wife's character on earlier rather than going from memory and her character's unbuffed stats were higher than I recalled; at 175 stamina she can max it out any time she wants simply by using an alchemy potion and switching out her goblin earring. In practice she doesn't bother because it doesn't matter in a duo, but that reduces my earlier comment of "never has maxed it" to technically correct, but effectively wrong insofar as this specific conversation is concerned. Her character was at 1950 HP, 2289 mana, 903 AC unbuffed. 175 stamina, 230-something WIS.

Note again we mostly duo so the mediocre AC is acceptable for her (who needs AC if you aren't getting hit?) but I would recommend more for a dedicated solo'er. On the occasions I log on her character and use it to solo something she does get smacked harder than I'd prefer.

BP/arms/legs are Thurgadin. Only problematic items for a current non-raider would be the epic and the FD ring. She got the epic in 2012 when it was virtually automatic and the FD ring was a (much appreciated) gift from a friend of ours. If I wanted to set it up more for solo'ing about 25-30 more stamina and ~100 display AC would be nice at the cost of trading some of that mana pool away. She was at 105 stamina/wis default. If you took the same character with a stamina focus you'd be at 195 stamina base, still over 3K mana, and have room to up that AC rating a bit for a more solo-oriented focus. Optionally you vcould make the same change entirely with gearing, highlighting that 20 points of a statistic are not a lot either way in this game, and that starting statistics and equipment choice very much inter-mingles.

Danth

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What are you talking about? Check the history on both of those links lol. It shows the pages being created by TWO different users. Unless you are suggesting they are the same person with two different accounts?

I misread several pages ago; I thought Siberious was recreating ArbiterBlixen's Magelo, but on review it looks like it was a separate one.

I apologize: you are correct and (on this note at least) you were reading the thread and I was the mistaken one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I misread several pages ago; I thought Siberious was recreating ArbiterBlixen's Magelo, but on review it looks like it was a separate one.

I apologize: you are correct and (on this note at least) you were reading the thread and I was the mistaken one.

No worries, it happens. Just try to not jump to conclusions so quickly.

As for your other questions:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You must be referring to something out of context: I've said multiple times in this thread (with explanations) how HP > Mana, both before and at 60.

I am just confused as to what you are trying to argue. Before you said you weren't really talking about Shamans under 60, but then you started talking about them again.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So to be clear: you did not do any high-end raiding prior to acquiring Torpor?

No, I didn't even have my epic. My key items were Fungi Tunic, Fungi Staff, JBB, Black Fur Boots, Shawl 7, and Othmir Prexus Totem. The other slots were just filled with normal gear, nothing from raids. This was all basically funded by killing guards. This was back when you could make 500-600pp an hour killing Misty Thicket Guards. Even just playing 1 hour a day equates to 200k a year hehe. That is pretty casual to be honest.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What "point"? You insisted your opinion was true without any explanation whatsoever:

If you want to convince me otherwise, just explain the situations that a 60 Shaman would be in where mana would save their life and HP wouldn't.

I have run out of Mana before due to bad resist chains, fizzling, adds, etc. Shaman spells are expensive. That is dangerous because you may not have enough mana to gate, and not enough HP to cannibalize safely. Having an extra 200 mana means you could land 1 more slow, root, torpor, or gate. That CAN save your life.

I have run out of mana before and after Torpor. Pre-Torpor running out of mana often occurs when you are root rotting, and root just keeps breaking due to bad luck. Post Torpor this can happen on WW Dragons if you get really bad luck with fizzles and resists. I have had to gate even when the mob was slowed because I was at half health and no mana. It would be too risky to try and save the kill.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...

Your relatively high-end character provides an interesting comparison to a lower-end shaman as I described above: Compared to the wife's character, your health is about the same and you have somewhat less mana, but your armor rating and resists are dramatically higher. That's the real advantage to the higher-end equipment, you get a bunch of different stats on it rather than having to maybe focus on one or two. It definitely looks like a solo-oriented gear setup to me, one that takes advantage of your access to higher-end items.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your relatively high-end character provides an interesting comparison to a lower-end shaman as I described above: Compared to the wife's character, your health is about the same and you have somewhat less mana, but your armor rating and resists are dramatically higher. That's the real advantage to the higher-end equipment, you get a bunch of different stats on it rather than having to maybe focus on one or two. It definitely looks like a solo-oriented gear setup to me, one that takes advantage of your access to higher-end items.

Danth

I made a magelo for approximately what I had before I started heavily raiding. Most of this is the equipment I got for myself before 60 by killing guards, and some low-end raiding with Kittens:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_...mwowiPreTorpor

I am an Ogre, and I dumped most of my points into WIS. I have 128 STA base, so that is 23 points more than a Barbarian with 105 WIS and 105 STA.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am just confused as to what you are trying to argue. Before you said you weren't really talking about Shamans under 60, but then you started talking about them again.

What I actually wrote was:

Before 60 no one is maxing any stats, so I'be been assuming the conversation starts at 60: personally I'm not even trying to discuss <60 here.

That seems extremely clear to me: we were talking about maxing Stamina, and no one is maxing Stamina at level 39. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand, but even if it was ... literally just two posts later ... I clarified that even without considering stat maxes, HP was still preferable:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P.S. But also (re: <60), when XPing max mana truly doesn't matter. I never died, not even once, in my entire journey to 60, because I started at max mana, used it all up, and died at the end for the lack of just a bit more mana.

However, I did die (many times) from fights where I started at max HP, and then died because I couldn't gate out fast enough, or root fast enough, or whatever ... and a few more HP might have given me time to get that last survival spell off.

And yet, despite me saying this way back on page 5 ... you still can't explain what I've got wrong there.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, I didn't even have my epic. My key items were Fungi Tunic, Fungi Staff, JBB, Black Fur Boots, Shawl 7, and Othmir Prexus Totem. The other slots were just filled with normal gear, nothing from raids.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am an Ogre, and I dumped most of my points into WIS. I have 128 STA base, so that is 23 points more than a Barbarian with 105 WIS and 105 STA.

Mystery solved: you're talking oranges and everyone else here was talking Apples.

But getting back to Barbarian Shaman (you know, the topic of the thread) still no one has presented any evidence that for 99.9% of that Shaman's life Stamina won't be better; all you've got is "in the last 0.01% of their life as they get their very final items, they might (depending on gear preferences) hit the cap."

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have run out of Mana before due to bad resist chains, fizzling, adds, etc. Shaman spells are expensive.

Again, you're reframing my arguments to win, while ignoring what I wrote. Be honest: in what % of fights do you actually start at max mana, burn through all that mana (but not all your HP), and then die at the end from lack of mana?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have run out of mana before and after Torpor ... *WW Dragon details*

But again, stop ignoring what I'm asking: is the hard part of a typical WW dragon fight that you run out of Mana but still have plenty of HP leftover, or (as I keep repeating) is the hard part surviving long enough to land slow?

[Siberious]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not "talking absolutes", and I fully agree you could put all points in Charisma and still be perfectly happy playing that Shaman for a decade ... but we are theorycrafting on what's best for a non-high-end raid shaman here.



I won't disagree ... but you don't have a choice of raw hit points or stamina with your starting points, only Wisdom or Stamina.



To be a straw man, it has to (falsely) support y argument. Saying "maybe not all Shaman do the camps I listed, because someone mentioned another camp" was in no way a part of my argument ... it was weakening my argument.

If all Shaman just did the camps I described, my argument would be stronger, so saying "there might be other places where my argument doesn't apply" is not a straw man strengthening my argument!

Try to actually understand what a logical fallacy is before you accuse people of using one next time.



The Magelos are special, so I don't think they can be renamed, only deleted and remade. I deleted Danth's Wife for you ;-)



FINALLY! This has been what I've been trying to show here!

That shaman has 69 less AC than Loramin (Danth was just talking about the importance of AC to a Shaman). They have more than 200 mana less than Loramin (throughout this thread everyone keeps insisting max mana matters). They have 27 less MR and significantly less other resists, no regen, no FT ...

... and they're "done". This Shaman has played for years to get all that gear, and now at the end they have nowhere to go (without losting stamina).

So yes, if you abandon everything else and just focus on Stamina, and devote your entire Shaman career to getting Stamina gear, at the very end you might, maybe max out your Stamina.

But for the entire time you spent leveling up, and the entire time you spent at 60 farming plat for Torpor, and then the entire time you spent acquiring gear with Torpor ... more HP would have been more helpful than mana, for reasons I've repeatedly endlessly, and no one has in any way confronted.

Oof. I had a longer response I wanted to give, but you're so all over the place and delusional with this last post I just can't. The wiki I created was a quick sketch to illustrate you can get to max sta if you want with non-raid gear and a 105/105 sta/wis base. It's no where close to "done" or the best options in general. And it's barely different than Loramin in any fashion, it even has more hps. I didn't sacrifice much of anything meaningful (resists/FT1/2hp regen from Vindi BP aren't meaningful in this conversation), it's just missing expensive group gear or raid gear in comparison to Loramin, of course some stats will be lower.

It's clear you're going to continue to say that no one has confronted your claims, despite literally everyone doing so with data and examples. You just ignore/misinterpret/misunderstand the majority of what everyone types, especially claiming my magelo link proved your point. I'm out for real this time, came back to provide the magelo I promised if you wanted it, only to be met with the above response that ensures me you have no plans to understand what is being discussed.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oof. I had a longer response I wanted to give, but you're so all over the place and delusional with this last post I just can't.

I truly don't understand how I'm "all over the place"; I've continuously repeated the same, very basic, points, over and over throughout this thread:

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

2) Prior to 60/Torpor, HP help you survive and level faster than mana does

3) At 60/with Torpor, for the kinds of fights I've listed (eg. PoM A4, Efreeti, WW Dragons, Crypt in Seb) the hard part of winning the fight isn't having enough mana to cast what you need: the hard part is surviving long enough to land slow.

If you don't want to contest those points, great: talk about your PE hammer-wielding ogre and how he proves non-raid Barbs should invest in Wisdom. Post magelos of what a Shaman looks like at the very end of their career and use that as justification for why they should have less HP for the 99% rest of their career.

More power to you, but personally this mindless arguing is exhausting me, so I'm simply not going to reply to any more posts here unless someone posts a logical argument or evidence that actually contradicts the above points.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That seems extremely clear to me: we were talking about maxing Stamina, and no one is maxing Stamina at level 39. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand, but even if it was ... literally just two posts later ... I clarified that even without considering stat maxes, HP was still preferable:

It is clear. You are talking about level 60 Shamans. I was too, so there is no need to bring up 0-59 Shamans. Not sure what the problem is. Just stop bringing up 0-59 Shamans in your arguments lol.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mystery solved: you're talking oranges and everyone else here was talking Apples.

But getting back to Barbarian Shaman (you know, the topic of the thread) still no one has presented any evidence that for 99.9% of that Shaman's life Stamina won't be better; all you've got is "in the last 0.01% of their life as they get their very final items, they might (depending on gear preferences) hit the cap."

What are you talking about? I have been talking about Barbarians the whole time lol. All of the Magelos posted here that we were talking about are Barbarian. I simply posted my Magelo because you asked about my gear before level 60. Or did you forget your own questions already?

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, you're reframing my arguments to win, while ignoring what I wrote. Be honest: in what % of fights do you actually start at max mana, burn through all that mana (but not all your HP), and then die at the end from lack of mana?

I am not reframing anything. What are you talking about? I have run out of mana starting at MAX MANA before, and me dying to that is about the same percentage as me surviving at 75HP or less. Both cases are rare.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But again, stop ignoring what I'm asking: is the hard part of a typical WW dragon fight that you run out of Mana but still have plenty of HP leftover, or (as I keep repeating) is the hard part surviving long enough to land slow?

75HP has never been the difference between life and death in a WW dragon fight for me pre-slow. I do not run extra HP items to increase my max HP for any WW dragon fight. If I was that low on HP and the dragon was unslowed, I would just die because WW dragons hit for around 200.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

None of the Magelos posted here are high-end raid gear lol. Where are you getting this? You can cap stamina with EC bought items on a Barbarian, as shown in two different Magelos made by two different people. You clearly do not understand the difference between gear tiers.