Moss covered Twig

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DPS-wise Twig does a little less DPS than Epic Fist (9/16) when using it in the primary hand according to my calculator, so it wasn't exceptionally special DPS-wise.

Epics didn't exist when Kunark was released and barely anyone had epics before 2001.

Mosscovered Twig was the top DPS weapon in the game, along with Barbed Scale Whip, and both hilariously dropped from low level MOBs in Frontier Mountains. So of course they were changed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Epics didn't exist when Kunark was released and barely anyone had epics before 2001.

Mosscovered Twig was the top DPS weapon in the game, along with Barbed Scale Whip, and both hilariously dropped from low level MOBs in Frontier Mountains. So of course they were changed.

I didn't say Epics were common back then. My point was simply that Twig doesn't always out DPS other 1h Kunark-Era weapons, so it wasn't over powered from a raw DPS perspective. Adamantite Club in main hand also out DPSes Twig in many scenarios. The scenario in which Twig can out DPS Epic Fist and Addy Club is against a high AC target. But Kunark raid mobs didn't really have the high AC that we see in Velious.

So a nerf would be due to something like technical limitations, pushing, or ease of acquiring the item. It certainly is easier to get than Epic or Adamantite Club.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point was simply that Twig doesn't always out DPS other 1h Kunark-Era weapons

Your "point" is wrong. Twig did out DPS every other 1H weapon in the game at the time, with the mechanics that were in the game at the time. Hence why people in top raid guilds at the time were complaining about it. They changed the damage formula at some point after Kunark release.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your "point" is wrong. Twig did out DPS every other 1H weapon in the game at the time, with the mechanics that were in the game at the time. Hence why people in top raid guilds at the time were complaining about it. They changed the damage formula at some point after Kunark release.

I am not sure why you keep doing this. The reality is this thread is talking about Mosscovered Twig on P99. My calculator shows that Twig does not out-DPS other 1h weapons on P99 like Epic Fist or Addy Club, unless you are fighting a high AC target. This is using it in your primary hand. Thus far you have no P99 parses to prove otherwise.

Is it possible Twig was the best 1h weapon on live when it came out? Maybe. I doubt you have solid enough evidence for this claim either way. The data from back then is not very reliable, and it isn't really relevant to OP's question on P99.

If you can find some patch notes or a dev talkimg about it, that would be great! Learning EQ history is always fun.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Without evidence it is your word vs. my calculator. Remember that most people didn't have higher end kunark weapons, so the data could easily be skewed towards the more common weapon set. You'd have more Twig parses than Addy Club parses. That doesn't mean Addy Club actually did less DPS than Twig, even during the supposed timeframe you are discussing. Often times player reports weren't that accurate. People also tried to keep secrets, so it is possible they didn't want people to know how good other weapons were.

Also remember that the developers knew about weapons that hadn't come out yet. Weapon balance was in the works for weapons like Epic Fist before the weapons came out to the public. They probably had statistics spreadsheets for the amount of DPS different weapons did.

*Low-Delay Weapons and Damage Bonus Changes*

In accordance with our announcement several weeks ago, two low-delay weapons can now only be equipped in the off-hand. Included in this change are the Mosscovered Twig and the Barbed Scale Whip. The delay on these weapons and the associated damage bonus to weapons in the primary hand made these weapons much too powerful for their availability and the risk associated with their acquisition.

from https://archives.jeuxonline.info/fils/17142.html

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The delay on these weapons and the associated damage bonus to weapons in the primary hand made these weapons much too powerful for their availability and the risk associated with their acquisition.

Thanks Bcbrown! As this says, it wasn't due to the DPS being better than all other 1h weapons. It was just better DPS than it should have been for how easy it was to get. My calculator showed as much.

[bcbrown]

The exact same patch released epics, so we can safely disregard epics:

New Epic Quests We are pleased to announce that we have implemented new "Fiery Avenger" style quests for every class in the game (including paladins). The ultimate reward for each quest boasts a custom model with unique particle effects. We think that you will be pleased.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure why you keep doing this.

The question is why do YOU keep doing this?

You're talking about epic weapons when they were not in the game and you keep talking about your damage calculator when it's NOT how things were calculated at the time. You came up with some random harebrained thesis that "moss covered twig was nerfed because of technical limitations" and you're again trying to double-down on dumb things you say and argue to death, so that you don't have to admit you're wrong.

This post shows how things were working back then - http://web.archive.org/web/200107211...23&t=000082&p=

Weapons were most commonly hitting for (double the listed damage + level mod) and minimum damage hits were the same for all weapons and happened more frequently. This made it so things were very skewed in favor of low delay weapons.

Exactly as I said, moss covered twig and barbed scale whip were outdamaging every other weapon at the time. Raiders were really mad about it, because the best weapons in game were these easy to obtain things that invalidated planar gear and everything else available.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The question is why do YOU keep doing this?

You're talking about epic weapons when they were not in the game and you keep talking about your damage calculator when it's NOT how things were calculated at the time. You came up with some random harebrained thesis that "moss covered twig was nerfed because of technical limitations" and you're again trying to double-down on dumb things you say and argue to death, so that you don't have to admit you're wrong.

This post shows how things were working back then - http://web.archive.org/web/200107211...23&t=000082&p=

Weapons were most commonly hitting for (double the listed damage + level mod) and minimum damage hits were the same for all weapons and happened more frequently. This made it so things were very skewed in favor of low delay weapons.

Exactly as I said, moss covered twig and barbed scale whip were outdamaging every other weapon at the time. Raiders were really mad about it, because the best weapons in game were these easy to obtain things that invalidated planar gear and everything else available.

You were the one started this new conversation by claiming I was wrong without evidence.

I believe you think too much about how Everquest was historically. I already stated earlier I wasn't an expert on Twig lore. But you didn't supply any evidence for your claims until this post. I am not sure why you assume I must agree with your historical claims when you do not provide evidence.

I also did not make a historical claim that Epic and Twig were used side-by-side. You assumed that. I just picked a 1h Kunark-Era weapon to compare weapon ratios. That weapon happened to be Epic Fist. I was looking at era-appropriate weapon ratios, not historical data.

I switched to Adamantite Club because it would get you out of your historical headspace. Adamantite Club has a better ratio, so it can replace Epic Fist in my example.

My DPS calculator uses EQEMU code, which was based off of many people backwards engineering live. I trust that they did a good job. My DPS calculator shows the same pattern, where lower delay weapons improve DPS-wise as AC increases due to damage bonus. Nobody is disagreeing with you on that point.

At the same time, many people on live weren't fighting high AC, high level mobs. Many players didn't even get to 60 before Velious came out. A weapon like Adamantite Club would have probably beaten Twig on XP mobs if Adamantite Club was easier to get based on my calculator. Is it a large margin? No, but I don't like absolute statements about Twig beating every weapon, as it hides the nuance.

As the patch notes said, Twig was too powerful for how easy it was to get. Hence the nerf.

[bcbrown]

Seems to me that a weapon that does almost as much DPS as an epic, before epics were released, is a weapon that does exceptional DPS, regardless of whether it's the top DPS weapon or top-2 of its time.