Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Saving HP and Mana on the Necro means they can do more things. It's really a simple concept, I don't see why you are trying to deny this basic fact.

Lol like what else is the necro going to be doing otherwise? Mobs are dying fast so any spell cast dps they do with their mana (of which they will have plenty with lich) has the potential to heal.

You've never played a necro to a competent level have you?

Saving Mana and a spell slot on the Enchanter means they can do more things. It's really a simple concept, I don't see why you are trying to deny this basic fact. If the Enchanter isn't casting Slow, they can be casting something else simultaneously with the Shaman. Plus you get 2x Slowers for high magic resist mobs.

Enchanter probably won't be doing much slowing at all. Mobs will die fast.

High MR mobs? Who cares. By the time you're at that level your charm pet is gonna have like 7-8k hp. Not hard to heal that.

As you keep forgetting, you can root rot mobs in a group for faster killing. And yes, you can nuke as well if you want. A Mage who nukes is going to be meditating more often. This averages out their DPS over time to whatever their limit on mana is. A shaman's ability to cannibalize allows them more flexibility when the group is considering the best use of their resources. A Shaman's malo is still better. It's not a large gap I agree, but it's better.

Lol back to root rotting in a group with a mezzer.

Grade_A ass-hattery.

Having more people with root means that each caster's spell bar can be more flexible. Don't need 4 roots? Take root off the Shaman's bar so they can cast another DoT. Or take root off the Cleric's bar for another Stun, etc. That is one benefit of overlapping spells, you get to optimize spell slots better across the group.

Group already has 3 roots. They don't want a dead weight just to save 1 spell slot across 3 other casters.

Clearly you haven't played a Torpor Shaman. They are one of the best tanks without discs in the game. That is why they can solo so well with Torpor + Slow. You don't solo things like 6+ WW Dragons without being a great tank. A Player is much easier to control than a pet when tanking too. This frees up the pet classes to focus on other things. When the pets are behind the mob, they do more damage and can backstab. This is really basic stuff. Claiming a Necro/Mage pet can tank better than a Shaman is a really silly thing to say. I don't see Mage/Necro pets solo tanking 6+ WW Dragons.

I have a 60 shaman. Just because the 60 shaman can tank with torpor doesn't mean they should when there are 3 other candidates (any of the pets) that will do it better.

You keep talking about "freeing up the others" like they aren't going to be half-bored with ench/cleric/necro/mage.

They don't need to be freed up by dead weight.

You don't get to unilaterally decide this just because it helps your argument lol. There was no such restriction from OP. Please stop doing this, it just makes you look desperate.

I didn't make this thread. This thread is what is is.

If your cleric/Necro is at FM all the time, they can channel their mana into the Shaman for more spells like DoTs, slows, roots, buffs, etc. This is because the Shaman can cannibalize the HP from the heals. You can't do that with a Mage. You get way more flexibility of resource management with a Shaman, which reduces downtime of the group and increases your power.

NOBODY WANTS TO WASTE TIME OR MANA HEALING A SHAMAN SO THEY CAN PUMP OUT MORE CRAP DPS.

This is laughable at best.


You remain the captain of the failboat.

[Troxx]

45 more pages to go before midnight!

[Penish]

DSM prob has a list of random points he wants to debate to the death on. Here’s a summary of his nonsense so far:

-There’s “math” to objectively say that ogres are the best shaman race.
-Shamans are a dps class and can out dps mages
-People can’t be mad about players voluntarily awakening the sleeper
-Shaman pets are tanks
-JBB is a min max item for shamans
-Clerics arent needed for 4 man content
-shamans offer more use to enchanters than clerics do
-shamans net the same pp per hour as an enchanter
-you should consider spamming taunt as +1 aggro every 6 seconds is better than nothing while ignoring the fact that there is a superior way to use taunt
-150 str on a monk is good enough
-you are trolling if you are not interested in my opinion
-iksar int is easy to max. You don’t need hp gear.
-you cannot claim ad populum yet my experience as a sk is good enough for this discussion

I’ll continue to monitor and track this so that people are aware of all these theories. I’m sure there’s some more I missed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol like what else is the necro going to be doing otherwise? Mobs are dying fast so any spell cast dps they do with their mana (of which they will have plenty with lich) has the potential to heal.

You've never played a necro to a competent level have you?

Are you suggesting that a Necro could do nothing with more Mana and HP if they had access to it? The only person who clearly hasn't played a Necro is yourself. You might want to do some basic research on the class.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanter probably won't be doing much slowing at all. Mobs will die fast.

High MR mobs? Who cares. By the time you're at that level your charm pet is gonna have like 7-8k hp. Not hard to heal that.

Enchanters will be waiting for their pet to break. Allowing the Enchanter to fully focus on that means charm breaks will be less ugly. Enchanters will also be CCing if something goes wrong. Again, very simple stuff that anybody who has played this game should know.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol back to root rotting in a group with a mezzer.

Grade_A ass-hattery.

Necros and Shamans can root/rot just fine solo without the need for Enchanter CC. Claiming that root/rotting in a group is somehow different or more dangerous just means you don't understand root/rotting very well, or basic game mechanics. Grouping doesn't change how the game mechanics work.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Group already has 3 roots. They don't want a dead weight just to save 1 spell slot across 3 other casters.

Spell slots are very important, I am not sure why you think otherwise. Very simple stuff as I said.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a 60 shaman. Just because the 60 shaman can tank with torpor doesn't mean they should when there are 3 other candidates (any of the pets) that will do it better.

You keep talking about "freeing up the others" like they aren't going to be half-bored with ench/cleric/necro/mage.

They don't need to be freed up by dead weight.

You need to play your 60 Shaman more then if you think a Necro/Mage pet can out-tank a Shaman lol. I'd love to see you try to solo a 6+ WW Dragon with your Mage.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't make this thread.

Exactly. Stop making up rules that OP didn't make in a silly attempt to constrain the argument in ways that help you win. It just looks desperate. OP didn't say you couldn't use bots. OP didn't say you couldn't discuss the merits of leveling one class over another in terms of their usefulness after the group breaks up.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

NOBODY WANTS TO WASTE TIME OR MANA HEALING A SHAMAN SO THEY CAN PUMP OUT MORE CRAP DPS.

Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to learn about game mechanics is irrelevant to the topic at hand. If your group is at FM, funneling their mana into the Shaman is more useful than just sitting at 100%. You get more DoTs, Nukes, roots, buffs, debuffs, etc. without the need to meditate.

You can play how you like, but please stop assuming other people must play the same way you do. You seem to want to play the game sub-optimally. That is fine, but not everyone else has to play sub-optimally like yourself.

Originally Posted by Penish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nonsense...

Be careful when playing in game with Penish. He will purposely lie about his intentions to play with you when grouping. He will try to record video of you playing poorly and use it against you in an argument. He won't even finish grouping with you, he will just leave, completely wasting your time. There's no reason to trust what a proven liar says.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you suggesting that a Necro could do nothing with more Mana and HP if they had access to it? The only person who clearly hasn't played a Necro is yourself. You might want to do some basic research on the class.

Riddle me this ...

When you're in a group that is putting out enough massive dps that xp group mobs are going to die in 20-30 seconds, what else is the necro going to do other than manage his pet and lob nukes/taps? Of course there will be circumstances where you want to focus on CC or other critical things ... but certainly not waste mana on dot spells.

The whole point here is that the necromancer does not want or need your help keeping himself healed. He can do that in spades. Regen is cute and always nice to have but entirely not needed.

I have played a necromancer.

Mine is level 60. I've main healed groups of 3 melees without any priestly help and no outside regen.

What level is yours?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Riddle me this ...

When you're in a group that is putting out enough massive dps that xp group mobs are going to die in 20-30 seconds, what else is the necro going to do other than manage his pet and lob nukes/taps? Of course there will be circumstances where you want to focus on CC or other critical things ... but certainly not waste mana on dot spells.

The whole point here is that the necromancer does not want or need your help keeping himself healed. He can do that in spades. Regen is cute and always nice to have but entirely not needed.

I have played a necromancer.

Mine is level 60.

What level is yours?

Lobbing nukes and taps is certainly something you could do with more HP/Mana. I am not sure why you are arguing that Necromancers can do nothing with more HP/Mana lol. It sounds like you answered your own question.

You seem to forget that a Shaman is enhancing the DPS of the other party members, which means the DPS gap between having a Shaman and a Mage isn't as big as you think. The Shaman is enabling the party members and pets to deal more DPS, and the party members in turn are also enabling the Shaman to do more DPS because they can increase how much HP the Shaman can cannibalize.

You are also getting the massive utility that a Shaman provides.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lobbing nukes and taps is certainly something you could do with more HP/Mana. I am not sure why you are arguing that Necromancers can do nothing with more HP/Mana lol. It sounds like you answered your own question.

You stated:

1. Healing + Regenerating the Necro so they can use their best lich spell. This frees up the Cleric to not have to worry about that. Also saves the Cleric mana to do stuns, nukes, etc. if needed.

I pointed out that necros can heal themselves just fine ... to which you replied:

Are you suggesting that a Necro could do nothing with more Mana and HP if they had access to it? The only person who clearly hasn't played a Necro is yourself. You might want to do some basic research on the class.

To which I pointed out that what we are doing with our mana involves stealing hp from mobs ... you know ... to heal ourselves. Doing what a necromancer does and would do in a group like this is going to cover their lich losses in spades.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Shaman is enabling the party members and pets to deal more DPS, and the party members in turn are also enabling the Shaman to do more DPS because they can increase how much HP the Shaman can cannibalize.

None of these classes need anything from you to enable them. It's not like these are melees who need your haste or want your buffs. All the critical jobs are covered between the cleric and the enchanter.

-The cleric isn't going to be needing to heal the necromancer.
-Having your heals there adds no value beyond redundancy.
-I've played a necromancer; you apparently havent.

Checkmate?

Checkmate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You stated:




I pointed out that necros can heal themselves just fine ... to which you replied:



To which I pointed out that what we are doing with our mana involves stealing hp from mobs ... you know ... to heal ourselves. Doing what a necromancer does and would do in a group like this is going to cover their lich losses in spades.

-The cleric isn't going to be needing to heal the necromancer.
-Having your heals there adds no value beyond redundancy.
-I've played a necromancer; you apparently havent.

Checkmate?

Checkmate.

Claiming "checkmate" without basis just makes you look even more desperate.

The only person who has lost this debate is yourself, when you claimed that Necromancers can do nothing with extra HP/Mana if they were given it. For a level 60 Necromancer, you don't know your class very well it seems.

[Duik]

If these battles are lasting 40 - 50 secs then a necros dots are of little use or at best very inefficient. Necro dd are also very inefficient. A necro healing itself is both healing and damaging a mob (with a nice -200 mod).
Necro finds himself mana rich? Twitch that mana efficient dd burn mage. Too many charm breaks/adds? Twitch that chanter fucker.

Same for shammy dots. Take ages to come to fruition. So mana inefficient.
Torpor/slow tanking sounds fun (only ay 60...) if that is the only option. While tanking you have a chance of interrupts when doing all da uva utility stuff you mention? <- is a question btw.

Surely malo then slow while throwaway charm pet tanks is a better option? Then why have a shammy at all, just mage pet adds dps + ds on charm pet with pet haste masks sit back and relax.

Much of a mages (consitent) damage is from pet, pretty much set and forget (unless charm break) so mage has time to med/malo/burst dd/modrod or whatever is needed.
Remember, short fights require burst rather than dot damage.
Soloing anything is whatever is most mana efficient no matter how long it takes to kill (i know i know faster than mob regen but dont nitpick). So a nec/sham can dot/pet down a mob down while a mage will pet/malo if mob is under control, but will burn that fucker if need be.

I am sure this is wrong in some convoluted factual math provable way so post on, posters!

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by Penish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM prob has a list of random points he wants to debate to the death on. Here’s a summary of his nonsense so far:

-There’s “math” to objectively say that ogres are the best shaman race.
-Shamans are a dps class and can out dps mages
-People can’t be mad about players voluntarily awakening the sleeper
-Shaman pets are tanks
-JBB is a min max item for shamans
-Clerics arent needed for 4 man content
-shamans offer more use to enchanters than clerics do
-shamans net the same pp per hour as an enchanter
-you should consider spamming taunt as +1 aggro every 6 seconds is better than nothing while ignoring the fact that there is a superior way to use taunt
-150 str on a monk is good enough
-you are trolling if you are not interested in my opinion
-iksar int is easy to max. You don’t need hp gear.
-you cannot claim ad populum yet my experience as a sk is good enough for this discussion

I’ll continue to monitor and track this so that people are aware of all these theories. I’m sure there’s some more I missed.

He thinks you should dump all starting points into STA as Rogue, and INT as Shadowknight. Why? Because end game Velious gear is super attainable to most players.