The difference between the Play Nice Policy on this server and Everquest in 2000 &...

[ELance]

The difference between the Play Nice Policy on this server and Everquest in 2000 and 2001.

It's my understanding from substantial reading on newsgroups that in the Play Nice Policy of 2000 and 2001 GMs did not support camping at all, and in all cases of mediation players were always encouraged to share spawns, whether alone or in a group. It's my understanding on this server that players are immediately threatened with suspensions if they are found to be encroaching on popular and conventional ideas of camps. Does anyone know where this server went wrong (supposing it was trying to emulate classic Everquest) and why? I have tried to seek answers from the staff, but can come by nothing from them.

[America]

people's brains work differently than in 1999, and on paid accounts. therefore interventionism is requisite to maintain the "classic" feel. I understand being unahppy with the regime but you are an "everquest libertarian", aka retard

file under blessed to feel my boot

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ELance [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does anyone know where this server went wrong (supposing it was trying to emulate classic Everquest) and why? I have tried to seek answers from the staff, but can come by nothing from them.

"Went wrong" might be a bit too strong for a 100% free all-volunteer run server.

The staff are human, and there are precious few of them. This isn't surprising: to be a staff member you have to love Project 1999 so much that you are willing to never play on it (as a player) ever again. Very few people, who love P99 enough to want to become staff in the first place, are willing to make that sacrifice.

On top of that, because of the lack of tangible benefits, (sadly) many staff members in the past have abused their position to sell favors in one form or another. When they get caught they are of course kicked out, leaving the project with even fewer staff members.

So, in light of all of the above, it's a bit ... naive(?) to expect the same level of customer service that Verant offered back when 1k+ customers (per server) were giving them $9.99 a month to pay GMs (and, in a way, to pay for guides, since those guides had to be supervised by paid GMs).

Hope that helps answer your "why?" If P99 could magically hire a full GM/guide team, like Verant had on live, they could probably handle CSR policies that require more time investment (eg. if you want to force people to share a camp, that takes more time/babysitting than just saying "Bob has the camp").

P.S. Plus I'm not entirely certain that camps weren't a thing everywhere. I did read the entire classic GM guidebook (someone linked it here awhile back), but I don't remember it well enough to say for sure whether it was explicit about camps. It might have been one of those gray areas that varied by server (ie. by GM fiat).

[Legidias]

1. The idea of 'camps' didnt even exist back then so of course there was no official support (for or against them)
2. Unlike P99, all the players on live were paying customers, so of course the company isn't going to be as welcoming to ban / suspend accounts since that directly affects their pay
3. People are still encouraged to share spawns. People are just more greedy / know how to solo them more efficiently than back then.
4. No one is "immediately threatened with suspensions" in a camp dispute. I have been part of several, on the accusing and accused sides, and not once have I seen any mention of suspension. You would only get suspended for either major KS (like SF) or repeated camp issues.

Don't know if trolling, but 20 years and a completely different meta changes a lot.

[Supaskillz]

There were definitely camps on live. Most people respected standard camps. If there was a dispute gms/guides would get involved and may often encourage sharing. We don't have guides/gms on 24/7 on here. Respecting first come first serve on a camp seems pretty reasonable to me.

I have played alot on p99 and had almost no camp disputes so I am always a little confused by these posts. I go to zones I might do a CC or go look at what I want to camp. Someone is there, guess I better do something else. No different from my approach on live. I remember waiting on lists for hours to get into Lord and/or Frenzy groups on live. Why would I want a server where people ignore that and after I camp an area for hours come and sit in front of me and start trying to pull the mobs before I do?

[Jauna]

is this a lulz thread?

[Nexii]

Players definitely had camps and called them back on live. People weren't as cutthroat because they typically only had one main and no alts that were high level. Lawyerquesting people into camp sharing was sure to ruin your reputation.

[ELance]

Originally Posted by America [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

people's brains work differently than in 1999 [snip] interventionism is requisite to maintain the "classic" feel.

Interesting theory, but I disagree.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, in light of all of the above, it's a bit ... naive(?) to expect the same level of customer service that Verant offered back when 1k+ customers (per server) were giving them $9.99 a month to pay GMs (and, in a way, to pay for guides, since those guides had to be supervised by paid GMs).

Hope that helps answer your "why?" If P99 could magically hire a full GM/guide team, like Verant had on live, they could probably handle CSR policies that require more time investment (eg. if you want to force people to share a camp, that takes more time/babysitting than just saying "Bob has the camp").

P.S. Plus I'm not entirely certain that camps weren't a thing everywhere. I did read the entire classic GM guidebook (someone linked it here awhile back), but I don't remember it well enough to say for sure whether it was explicit about camps. It might have been one of those gray areas that varied by server (ie. by GM fiat).

I don't expect or need customer service. I reckoned I have probably played this game 600 hours and never once petitioned a GM for anything. With an average of 1000 players logged online a day that should be four petitions a day at most. Also no one was "forced" to share camps in 2000 and 2001. Killstealing was forbidden, and if someone was accused of it they would be monitored and given a warning if they did. Apart from that they were encouraged to share. Whether they did or not I think was immaterial; the first person to engage a mob had rights to it. What I mean is that the only official GM action ever in such disputes was to say "share". Warnings were only issued for killstealing.

Here is a post from newsgroups on 2/26/01 that explains it:

>
> Camping: Would someone please write a new players guide or have the GMs
> and their assistants sit down and get their stories straight? I have
> had a GM
> "say You can't camp a zone." Another one says, " you can't camp a rare
> spawn"
> Still another says " Camping is still enforced, but we refer to it as
> the play nice rule. Take turns (kids) and play nice" If this is such a
> big problem, why not set a flag so that the person getting the first hit
> has responsibility for the critter. Have others ge the message "That
> creaature is under attack" Ok, I know nothing about programming so
> maybe this would be a bite, and there would have to be a way of
> releasing it once you realize you can't handle it. Hey, there ya go,
> this wouild force more people to group up unless they really wanted to
> solo.
The only rules for camping are in the play nice policy availble at
www.everquest.com
Yes, gms do kinda enforce them differently. The actual rule is the
first player to cast a spell that engages the critter or melee engages
the critter gets it and anyone else is ksing. Camping is not actually
supported in the pnp, but if called a gm will intervene and say "share."

Another that addresses the idea of ownership in perpetuity from 10/23/2000:

" No one wants to address the fundamental point. Why does being there


: first grant you ownership in perpetuity?
It WAS already addressed. NOTHING grants someone ownership in perpetuity.
However, the commonly held GENTLEMANLY code of conduct says you don't bust
up someone else's camp. If some spot is in use, go find another spot that
isn't. You are imposing on THEM, not the otherway around."

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. The idea of 'camps' didnt even exist back then so of course there was no official support (for or against them)
2. Unlike P99, all the players on live were paying customers, so of course the company isn't going to be as welcoming to ban / suspend accounts since that directly affects their pay
3. People are still encouraged to share spawns. People are just more greedy / know how to solo them more efficiently than back then.
4. No one is "immediately threatened with suspensions" in a camp dispute. I have been part of several, on the accusing and accused sides, and not once have I seen any mention of suspension. You would only get suspended for either major KS (like SF) or repeated camp issues.

Don't know if trolling, but 20 years and a completely different meta changes a lot.

1) Yes as I said 2000 and 2001, an era it may be supposed this server was trying to emulate.
2) A fair point, but that was the Everquest we all played and liked. If there were disputes then, it means that some players did not agree with the notions of whatever group liked to codify camps. And thus those players would not have a home on a server that bans them, and thus this server will not be the Everquest of 2000 and 2001.
3 & 4) Players are immediately threatened with suspensions for sharing mobs with groups who claim ownership in perpetuity by reason of being there first.

As to the last comment, that is insulting and uncalled for. What is "meta"? And why are we changing things? I thought the intent of this server was to emulate Everquest in 1999-2001.

Originally Posted by Supaskillz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There were definitely camps on live. Most people respected standard camps. If there was a dispute gms/guides would get involved and may often encourage sharing. We don't have guides/gms on 24/7 on here. Respecting first come first serve on a camp seems pretty reasonable to me.

I have played alot on p99 and had almost no camp disputes so I am always a little confused by these posts. I go to zones I might do a CC or go look at what I want to camp. Someone is there, guess I better do something else. No different from my approach on live. I remember waiting on lists for hours to get into Lord and/or Frenzy groups on live. Why would I want a server where people ignore that and after I camp an area for hours come and sit in front of me and start trying to pull the mobs before I do?

Massively multiplayer online games (as well as that MUDs on which they are based) are well known to thrive when types of players are kept in equilibrium. You may not understand it, but what they are doing on this server is exactly what has ruined MMORPGs, and exactly what writers such as Bartle warned about with heavy-handed intervention through coding and GMs. The idea of the ideal MMORPG is that players will work things out themselves, and there does not need to be control through systems and excessive policies. As you have noted many players respect this idea of camps, and think those that do not are rude, and thus a player that does not will acquire a lesser reputation than those that do, and thus any issue that there may be is resolved by the players without the intervention of GMs (or later systems such as instancing and mob locking). The reputation of a player that does not respect camps will be less in proportion to those that do, *in proportion to the number of players that do hold this idea of ownership in perpetuity on the server*, simulating a virtual world.

[Legidias]

Originally Posted by ELance [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3 & 4) Players are immediately threatened with suspensions for sharing mobs with groups who claim ownership in perpetuity by reason of being there first.

As to the last comment, that is insulting and uncalled for. What is "meta"? And why are we changing things? I thought the intent of this server was to emulate Everquest in 1999-2001.

First let me ask you which mob you KS'd / were KS'd on since this sounds personal lol. I will repeat again, I have been part of several camp issues, and know several other people who have been as well, and literally none of them are threatened with suspension immediately. You have to either talk back to the GM or repeatedly challenge camps (badly) for this to happen. So which did you fall in?

It's vaguely insulting because I assume you are trolling. Your account is 2 years old, and theres been LENGTHY discussions on camps in p99 and versus old school EQ.

"meta" is a very common term in regards to games. It refers to the state of the game and what players perceive as the best approach.
From Wikipedia, it "is any approach to a game that transcends or operates outside of the prescribed rules of the game".

The camp discussion is always good, but don't put out fake news like "OMG GM's INSTA BAN PERSON FOR MINOR CAMP DISPUTE".

[ELance]

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First let me ask you which mob you KS'd / were KS'd on since this sounds personal lol. I will repeat again, I have been part of several camp issues, and know several other people who have been as well, and literally none of them are threatened with suspension immediately. You have to either talk back to the GM or repeatedly challenge camps (badly) for this to happen. So which did you fall in?

It's vaguely insulting because I assume you are trolling. Your account is 2 years old, and theres been LENGTHY discussions on camps in p99 and versus old school EQ.

"meta" is a very common term in regards to games. It refers to the state of the game and what players perceive as the best approach.
From Wikipedia, it "is any approach to a game that transcends or operates outside of the prescribed rules of the game".

The camp discussion is always good, but don't put out fake news like "OMG GM's INSTA BAN PERSON FOR MINOR CAMP DISPUTE".

If you reread my original post, you will see that there is no mention of killstealing.

This is not fake news. Camps are defined and enforced by GMs on this server. A suspension will be the penalty for a player that does not comply with a GMs request for a player to desist with sharing the mobs of a group who by reason of being at the camp first claims ownership in perpetuity of it.

This is not "personal", far from it. I expected classic Everquest on this server, and have found that not only is the policy different, but is actually the polar opposite of the Play Nice Policy in 2000 and 2001. As to why I seldom come to these forums or have not followed discussions of camping... I was playing the game, and I have not found other points of the game unsatisfactory. That is really an ancient fallacy that you are repeating there about "the forums are the players".

What's more, if it is an issue that sees frequent discussion on these forums, then it bears repeating again and again, for it *differs markedly from Everquest in 2000 and 2001* and is in fact the polar opposite of it, discouraging sharing and encouraging exclusion.