"Classic" EQ, P99, and exploits versus emergent game play

[Loke]

Before I get to the meat & potatoes of this post, I’d like to ask people to keep this discussion civil and productive. I know as a former frequent RnF poster and with my checkered history on this server, this post coming from me might have a polarizing effect, however, having already been a member of many of the successful raiding guilds on this server and taking a break after my suspension I really couldn’t care less about past or current guild drama. My intention in making this post is in attempt to start a discussion about how we can handle some issues important to the server with less emphasis on the “us v. them” or “burn the witch” mentalities. As someone who still plays here on occasion, albeit far more casually than before, and someone who would like to raid in velious if my RL schedule allows it, seeing all these players going out of their way to get each other suspended is just ridiculous and something that is unhealthy for an already niche community. Also, I know this is a huge wall of text, sorry, but I wanted to provide a lot of examples of what I was talking about, also, I am really bored and have some time to kill. Anyway...

I was recently having a conversation about all the drama between the raiding guilds on this server and a friend said something to the effect of “I think a lot of people who raided on this server would have a lot more fun if they didn’t care so much and played more like Abacab.” This got me thinking and if you look at what Abacab did while he played on this server, all he really did was find creative ways to use server/game mechanics to grief other players. Many of the things Abacab did were considered exploits or a violation of the play nice policy, and I agree that a lot of those things should not have been allowed. However, Abacab was also kind of a great example of the type of player who helps discover new ways of playing a game, or emergent game play as it has been called.

If you look outside of EQ at other gaming titles you’ll find quite a few games that have evolved a play style completely different than what the developers of the game intended. Half-Life with Bunny Hopping is a good example. What was an unintentional bug in the game became a method of movement and a skill that good players had to master. In the same way, but on a more extreme scale, skiing in Tribes which was also originally just a bug has become one of the most central aspects to the entire franchise. Tribes without skiing simply wouldn’t be tribes. In these two examples, both half-life and tribes embraced what was originally a bug (to varying degrees) and allowed players to adapt their play style to the bug as opposed to declaring it an exploit.

Now I realize those are both first person shooter games and maybe you think embracing emergent game play is something that might not work in a large scale MMO; however, EQ itself has a long tradition of embracing emergent game play. The examples of this are all over the place. FD for example was never intended to be used as a pulling/splitting tool, however, innovative players found a way to utilize game mechanics in a new manner that allowed them to turn what was intended as a multiple mob encounter into a single pull. Camps in dungeons are also a good example of EQ allowing innovative game play. I remember reading an interview with someone on the development team who remarked they originally envisioned dungeons more like WoW where players would crawl through them. However, with short respawns and static named players found it more effective to remain stationary and thus the camps we all know were created by the players and community. I'm also pretty sure the various methods of kiting were not envisioned by the EQ developers, but I can't really remember the back story to that. These are just a few examples, but I think it illustrates that EQ as a game does have a history of allowing and even encouraging certain unintentional styles of play, at least in the early days.

So what does this have to do with p99? I’ve noticed throughout my time playing here that players are quick to cry “cheat” or “exploit” whenever some new way of utilizing a mechanic pops up. Most recently we’ve seen this with the IP exemption /q thing in VP. Now, I’m not saying that the IP exemption thing isn’t an exploit, I think due to the fact that not everyone has an exemption and that it gives an unfair advantage to those who do something should probably be done. That isn’t to say that anyone needs to get banned or suspended over it, but maintaining a level playing field is important across the player base. However, there are things that are equal across all players that we’ve declared exploits such as warping eyes (something you could do on live), lev trick (although it is rarely enforced), sneak/hide/invis (don’t think I’ve seen a ruling on this, but expect it’ll be fixed), etc. These are all issues that have been around for quite some time and have yet to be fixed, but are still punishable offenses. To me these all seem like issues that are kind of in the same vein as FD pulling. I don’t think any one of the “exploits” I listed is any more powerful or game changing than FD splitting, yet because verant allowed FD splitting we are ok with it while we are not ok with those other tricks.

The people who play P99 are more knowledgeable and dedicated than our counterparts from 14 years ago. We have a wealth of knowledge provided by those who went before us and by expanding on that knowledge we are bound to find methods of accomplishing things that players on live never did. Additionally we have a server staff that is much smaller and has drastically less time to devote to fixes and development than EQlive had. Considering these two factors, I wanted to propose the idea of reexamining the way we handle some of these “exploits.” It seems at the moment our go-to method of deciding whether something should be allowed is whether or not it was classic; however, as I discussed before, allowing certain bugs or “exploits” to alter the way EQ is played is in itself a classic aspect of the game. I can’t help but think that through our rigid attempt to recreate the experience of classic everquest, we may be falling folly to the same mistakes Sony made when they took over. With Sony EQ lost a lot of the sandbox feeling it had before and felt more like everything was designed with strict intention. So I’m not sure adhering to the mission of “recreating classic everquest” with such rigidity and little consideration for game evolution or emergent game play can actually accomplish the task of “recreating classic everquest.”

So if you’ve actually read this far, here is my suggestion. With things like eye warping, lev trick, or sneak/hide/invis, instead of declaring them exploits, not fixing them (whether the devs are unable to, or simply don’t have the time), and punishing players who abuse them, why not allow the abuse until either a) they are fixed or b) there is a clear and universal declaration from the server staff regarding the use of these mechanics? This would allow players to test the limits of said exploits and their potential for being allowed as emergent game play, while also not punishing people who are unsure of the legality of usage of such exploits. The problem with our current “if you don’t know, don’t do it” is that it makes players fearful of trying to find new ways of using the tools available to them and stifles innovation in the game. To my knowledge there has been no clear or universal ruling on the sneak/hide invis trick or the lev trick, yet both have been in the game for quite some time and used by many players without getting banned. If a fraps were to appear on RnF of a player doing these things to gain an advantage over their competition I’m sure there would be exploit and cheating allegations with calls for punitive action. To me that seems unfair as the said player is simply using a mechanic, whether intentional or not, to find a new and better way of doing something, again, much like FD pulling.

I’m definitely not trying to say that all things should be allowed. For example, the recent IP exemption fiasco should be dealt with by either fixing it or making a clear announcement regarding its use as it is unfair to players without exemptions. I just think that maybe the server could benefit from a more open minded and laissez faire attitude toward emergent game play. Did things like the Ivandyr’s hoop need to get nerfed for “trivializing an encounter” while DA tanking with idol allowed L50 players to kill things in sky that would have been almost impossible without the idols? Sure, it trivializes an encounter for 40-60 person raids, but that is only a bad thing if we are trying to maintain the status-quo. Had we allowed Ivandyr’s hoops to stay in game as they were, instead of seeing two 50 person raids competing for Trakanon FTE, we might see 5 or 6 20-25 man raids using hoops to compete for mobs. I don’t know if that would be better, but just because it is different that shouldn't be our sole justification for nerfing it. Or rez/bindsight pulling in sky? Sure, it kind of ruined the idea of linear progression in sky, but so does corpse summoning and corpsing keys. Even fixing the rez pulling opened up a new method of training using rez boxes. So did these fixes REALLY need to be done? Or were they examples of emergent game play that could have been embraced as new and innovative ways to do an encounter? To be completely honest, I don’t have the answer since there are a lot of factors to consider. But that brings me to the point of this post which is to try to start a discussion about how to handle these issues in a more civil way while attempting to get us away from the mentality that every questionable new tactic should be declared an exploit resulting in suspensions, bans, or raid suspensions simply because it is something new and different from EQlive and isn’t “classic”.

[applesauce25r624]

more paragraphs, please : [

[Susano]

As you stated with the IP exemption being unfair due to not everyone having one, it's equally unfair to people who are simply ignorant of other exploits that don't require any such flagging on an account.

Without full dissemination of the details of an exploit, any use of it by the community will lead to imbalances on the play field. There are many people who play p99 who are not active users of the forum and would have no way other than word of mouth in game to learn these techniques.

[ManticSquee]

I skipped the last paragraph so I could say I didn't read the whole thing. I probably should have skipped one of the middle paragraphs but it's too late now. I can see your point and from your examples I guess it just takes someone in charge to allow it. I can also see where people might not like your idea because it might be like opening a flood gate. It could get pretty annoying having people always pushing the subject by reasoning that the last item in question was allowed so why not this?

I have some time to kill also but not nearly as much as OP[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Loke]

Originally Posted by Susano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are many people who play p99 who are not active users of the forum and would have no way other than word of mouth in game to learn these techniques.

I dont see that as a problem though, because if you look at these new tricks as emergent game play as opposed to an exploit, it is no different than any other aspect of the game where asymmetrical information exists. New monks to the game don't understand pulling until they learn how to do it through the forums or word of mouth. Same goes for new necros, bards, druids, wizards, etc who don't know how to kite. Being among the first to discover a new and better way to do something should afford those players an advantage over other players at first.

Eventually everything important from tricks to raid strategies are discovered by others and shared among the community, but I don't think it is right to view innovation and creativity as an unfair advantage simply because not everyone knows about them. If everyone who played this game had the exact same knowledge of the game, there would be little to differentiate good players from bad ones since knowledge and skill are essentially one in the same in EQ.

Editing to expand with an example: When DA began pulling island to island in sky after rez pulling nerf, at first we in IB had no idea how they were doing it. Myself, Rhalous and Kinsawt (I'm sure others were involved, I just remember us three mostly) spent a lot of time testing and theory crafting how they were doing it. We eventually figured out they were using bard bind sight song to transfer aggro from island to island. For the week or so they were able to use this without us knowing how it was done they had a huge advantage raiding in plane of sky. Was that unfair? None of us in IB thought so. They simply found a better way of doing sky. Was this an exploit or emergent game play? Where do you draw the line? These are the types of question I think we need to answer before we start trying to ban or suspend players.

[Jokesteve]

At first, I was gonna read. But then I clicked on the link and seen that essay and was like

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[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

................
I was recently having a conversation about all the drama between the raiding guilds on this server and a friend said something to the effect of “I think a lot of people who raided on this server would have a lot more fun if they didn’t care so much and played more like Abacab.” This got me thinking and if you look at what Abacab did while he played on this server, all he really did was find creative ways to use server/game mechanics to grief other players. Many of the things Abacab did were considered exploits or a violation of the play nice policy, and I agree that a lot of those things should not have been allowed. However, Abacab was also kind of a great example of the type of player who helps discover new ways of playing a game, or emergent game play as it has been called.
.........

In many cases, these explotis can be an interesting addition to the game. However, sometimes they don't compliment it. For example, lets say there's a complex dungeon with all sorts of tactics that can be used to conquer it. However, one day a player (haxor) figures out a bug in the packet scheme and hacks it. With this, he's able to avoid all aggro and cannot b e hit or harmed by other monsters. Using this he's able to kill them and get loots without having to form strategies or, for that matter, to play the game.

When an exploit adds less than what was there already, it's not good.

For me, nothing ruins a game faster than a brainless superman cheat code. Games are about the strategy and challenge. Without that, there's no impulse for me to play them. Now, a haxor might derive strategy and challenge from figuring out ways to hack the game, but this same sense of reward cannot be felt by others who're given teh cheat who did not earn it. Instead of giving them strategy and challenge, they'll get a ruined game. And even if they figure out new ways of using the cheat to be even more powerful, and thus derive some enjoyment, it still could very easily ruin the game for others by either destroying the in-game economy or making it difficult for other players to enjoy the game in its natural state without also hacking it.

If I startup an arcade pinball game and get a higher score than ever then that means something because I am getting better. But if I can just click a cheat button and get 4,294,967,295 then where is the fun? There's no fun in that unless you had to figure out things to get the cheat button in the first place. Or you might use the cheat button to change the game and yet still play the game, but on your terms; game designer eh? But that means your score cannot be compared to scores made by other players who did not cheat.

The top 10 list in arcade games would be meaningless if players could cheat. Similarly, if I see a level 60 max level character and I don't know whether they cheated or not, it's a meaningless number to me. If they cheated and the cheat itself adds MORE to the game then I can see being ok with it. But here's the thing, many times cheats aren't used because they improve the game. They're used to grief others or to feed the ego.

Think what you want, but a max level character that cheats is usually less in my eyes. It's just human nature. Most players aren't game designers. And we're driven mostly by greed, not virtue.

So I'm all for emergent gameplay, just not for making a game dumber or its players unaccountable.

What would sports be like if different basketball teams could follow different rules? Like what if one team says NO GUNS and the other says GUNS ALLOWED. So they come onto the court and the game begins. One team is dribbling the basketball and the other is pulling out semi-automatic assault rifles and shooting them down. So they won the game. Congratulations!!!! But how reliable is their win as a measure of skill in basketball? Well, obviously they have some skill with assault rifles. Maybe a good aim. But can they dribble? Can they play as a team? What kind of offense do they use? None of that matters anymore, does it? A shame.

(i didn't say that - according to their rules - they scored 1234 points during official game time!!! wowzers!! 1234!!!! most conventional basketball teams score on average 100 points per game!!!)

[SirAlvarex]

I agree to a point. As long as the game doesn't become trivialized (like Ivandyr's hoops), there shouldn't be an issue. Yes, Feign Death by itself trivializes encounters and wasn't intended to do so. Some things like Bard AE mez/charm were changed because they *greatly* trivialized high end encounters.

[Loke]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about cheats or playing by different rules. I mostly referencing innovative game mechanics that have come about while we've played here that were not widely used on live and thus considered by many to be exploits. The type of things I'm talking about would be sneak/hide invising, warping eyes, bard bind sight pulling (which I'm pretty sure they fixed), charming isle 1 mobs in sky (was not allowed), charming Sirran in sky (is still allowed), usiny ivanydr's hoops, using DA idols, invis pulling, sneak pulling, etc... the list goes on. None of these are cases of black and white cheating, or one group of people playing by another set of rules than another, they are simply ways people have found to utilize game mechanics to beat encounters in a manner that wasn't intended. I'd argue shamans using puppet strings to solo group level encounters is more overpowered and trivializing than many of the things I listed, but we're all fine with that tactic being used on a large scale for whatever reason (maybe because we don't have 500+ post threads of people complaining, idk). I don't think it is really right to punish people who used these sort of tricks because one GM told one guild leader that they were punishable offenses 6 months ago, that doesn't seem fair (obviously not the case with all of them, but things like that could easily happen). Some things should be fixed, and some people should be punished, but we need to be more open minded about what is/isn't an exploit and more discriminating when we punish players for using game mechanics in an unconventional manner.

We're too quick to call things exploits because they trivialize the game, but for a game 14 years old, everything is essentially trivial. I'm simply suggesting that instead of constantly trying to adapt the game to how we think it should be played, maybe in some of these cases we should instead be adapting to the game and embracing new ways to play it.

[Meeper]

At 1799 words you were within the allowed word-count, but I'll have to mark you down for lack of references.