Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I also disagree about FSI being less useful in group situations. I am often getting hit in duo/group situations. Slows generate a lot of agro, bad pulls happen, and off tanking can be necessary.

This sounds like you group with some poor tanks. I'm not going to do what you might expect and pull the elitist "only group with quality players" card. I'm a fan of making do with what you have. Having to make less-than-stellar groups work is a valid enough reason to appreciate having the Ogre racial. Heck, there are entire classes (hello, Paladin) that are at their best as the rest of the group performs worse. That being said, it's hard to argue that bash resistance isn't vastly more situational for groupers than it is in solo situations. With a quality tank around a Shaman will only rarely be hit, or sometimes not at all during an entire gameplay session. The Ogre racial becomes worthless in such situations.

The correct argument, I think, is that racials are even less important to a grouping level 60 than they are for the soloist (and you already admit they're not a big deal for the soloist) so you might just as well min-max for the solo aspect of the class where it might offer some small bonus. I don't know that I'd agree with that argument in all cases, but it'd apply to enough players for the purpose of your guide with the caveat that individual players should always consider their own specific needs first and no guide can be all things to all people.

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My only notable critique of the guide itself is that the title could perhaps be altered to something like "Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide for min-maxers" to better convey its purpose.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

First off, thank you for the post!

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This sounds like you group with some poor tanks. I'm not going to do what you might expect and pull the elitist "only group with quality players" card. I'm a fan of making do with what you have. Having to make less-than-stellar groups work is a valid enough reason to appreciate having the Ogre racial. Heck, there are entire classes (hello, Paladin) that are at their best as the rest of the group performs worse.

Maybe I should clarify this a bit more, possibly in the guide as well. Even with a good tank, Torpor Shamans often take two responsibilities in groups: Slowing and Healing. From my experience, this puts me high on most mob's hate lists most of the time. Even with an experienced tank, it can be tough to keep up agro on multiple mobs when a Shaman needs to slow and heal. Doing 6+ Dragons is a great example here. I am usually on Rampage, even in a group of 6, due to slowing and healing. Torpor's range requires me to be in Rampage distance, so I am taking hits in the fight. I don't believe Bashes happen on rampage (I am usually not paying attention to that), so FSI probably doesn't apply to rampage hits. However, because I am second on the hate list, it isn't a large leap for the mob to occasionally turn to me, especially if I get a string of Slow resists and have to spam it. That is when FSI can still be useful. Also, I sometimes pull as a Shaman if there is no need to do crazy pulling shenanigans, because I am already going to be high on the hate list initially, when trying to land a slow.

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That being said, it's hard to argue that bash resistance isn't vastly more situational for groupers than it is in solo situations. With a quality tank around a Shaman will only rarely be hit, or sometimes not at all during an entire gameplay session. The Ogre racial becomes worthless in such situations.

I 100% agree here. I hope my guide didn't come across as FSI being amazing in group or raid situations. I was simply trying to show all situations in which the racials can benefit you. This is because some people like to claim FSI is never used in group or raid situations. That is obviously false, even if it is used less often. I did the same thing with all the other racials, in an attempt to strong man each one.

Again, maybe I should clarify this a bit more, but all racials tend to become largely useless in group and raid situations, especially when the group or raid is doing well. This includes Troll/Iksar Regeneration. If you are in a group that is destroying stuff, you are Regenerating even less than in solo situations. You can see how marginal the gains are for Troll/Iksar Regeneration in the solo experiences in my guide. Even if you are spamming high cost spells non stop, you can see how much mana is spent in 13 minutes in my Raid buffing example. I don't think I have ever spent more mana than that in a 13 minute period grouping. You still only save roughly 30 seconds of self healing in the end, which is basically useless in a group or raid situation anyway.

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The correct argument, I think, is that racials are even less important to a grouping level 60 than they are for the soloist (and you already admit they're not a big deal for the soloist) so you might just as well min-max for the solo aspect of the class where it might offer some small bonus. I don't know that I'd agree with that argument in all cases, but it'd apply to enough players for the purpose of your guide with the caveat that individual players should always consider their own specific needs first and no guide can be all things to all people.

I 100% agree here, and I can probably clarify that. And yes, no one guide is everything. I just know that all of these benefits can be quantified, and I haven't really seen anybody do that before. So hopefully my guide can provide clarity through real examples. Obviously EQ has a lot of situations, and you could always point to a very specific case and say x racial saved you there. But the idea of the "overall best race" is to determine which ability in general will give you the best bang for your buck, with the knowledge that sometimes other racials could have been better in very specific scenarios. It's simply an averages game.

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My only notable critique of the guide itself is that the title could perhaps be altered to something like "Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide for min-maxers" to better convey its purpose.

I was considering that at first. The only reason why I kept the title general is because I do include the other situations in my guide. If you prefer fashion quest, you can skip the guide, and I say that in the Preface. I already have a Pre-Torpor Shaman section, describing why Troll/Iksar Regeneration is best before you get Torpor. I simply didn't think a larger explanation was needed, due to the communities general agreement on this point. If people want, I can certainly break down the racial abilities in the Pre-Torpor situation in a similar manner to Post-Torpor.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Danth]

You don't need to add fashion links (I agree it's not necessary for the purpose of your article), but if you were so inclined you could add a listing of the different bear colors used by Form of the Great Bear. It's already on the page for the spell, granted, but putting answers for questions people frequently ask in a one-stop-shop article never hurts.


Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You don't need to add fashion links (I agree it's not necessary for the purpose of your article), but if you were so inclined you could add a listing of the different bear colors used by Form of the Great Bear. It's already on the page for the spell, granted, but putting answers for questions people frequently ask in a one-stop-shop article never hurts.


Danth

Good idea! An FAQ style section like that would be a nice addition.

[Vaarsuvius]

Hi,

I read that thread with great care, read your guide and watched your videos. Thank you for all the hours you put into that hard work. No matter if we agree with you or not, no one can deny you love shamans

From my not even 54 iksar scum shaman's point of view there is one thing that I don't understand in your reasonning

On the one hand you rate iksars lower than the other (superior) races because they can't wear plate armor but on the other hand you don't give much credit to the innate AC bonus they get.

Who cares if you only can wear chain (happy with my chain fungi) and not plate (not sure Vindi's, SS, Kael, ToV BPs don't qualify as plate though) when you don't want to be hit in the first place?

In fact there's also another argument in favor of FSI that I don't buy

Unless your back pedaling, FSI won't do much to prevent you from being stunned if you need to flee, ymmv

Aside from that, thanks for your guide & videos ��

PS 100% iksar shaman here, and happy to be one. Tried and rerolled an innoruk troll shaman which I got to 20, got him a jbb that I eventually sold to a fellow ogre shaman, but I ended up reverting to my lizard, and I love it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vaarsuvius [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hi,

I read that thread with great care, read your guide and watched your videos. Thank you for all the hours you put into that hard work. No matter if we agree with you or not, no one can deny you love shamans

From my not even 54 iksar scum shaman's point of view there is one thing that I don't understand in your reasonning

On the one hand you rate iksars lower than the other (superior) races because they can't wear plate armor but on the other hand you don't give much credit to the innate AC bonus they get.

Who cares if you only can wear chain (happy with my chain fungi) and not plate (not sure Vindi's, SS, Kael, ToV BPs don't qualify as plate though) when you don't want to be hit in the first place?

In fact there's also another argument in favor of FSI that I don't buy

Unless your back pedaling, FSI won't do much to prevent you from being stunned if you need to flee, ymmv

Aside from that, thanks for your guide & videos ��

PS 100% iksar shaman here, and happy to be one. Tried and rerolled an innoruk troll shaman which I got to 20, got him a jbb that I eventually sold to a fellow ogre shaman, but I ended up reverting to my lizard, and I love it

Thank you[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Yeah I am still trying to figure out how to clarify every point succinctly.

I probably wasn't super clear on the Classic/Kunark Plate problem Iksars have. Iksars can wear all Velious Plate, so that isn't a factor here. It basically boils down to not being able to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Jaundiced_Bone_Bracer . This is a great item, even at level 60 with Torpor. This is because Shaman spell slots are quite premium. Having the ability to use one of my strongest DD spells for free, without wasting a spell gem, is quite useful in certain fights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY In this video, I am using JBB to deal damage, and keep my hate below my pet's, so it can tank for the whole fight. You do not NEED to use this strategy to kill Cliff Golems, but JBB gives you more options. I did a total of 5300 damage in that fight with the JBB, which is 1/6th of the Golem's total health.

I do address the innate AC bonus at the end. That is one of the main reasons why Iksars are the best RAID ONLY Shaman, as stated in my guide. If you are looking for maximum damage reduction, Iksars are the best race. They have Regeneration, extra AC, better base resistances than a Troll, and access to https://wiki.project1999.com/Stone_of_Morid .

As to your point about FSI, that is the strategy lol. You try to avoid turning your back on the mob as much as humanly possible. As a Torpor Shaman, you usually don't run away from mobs. You either die in place fighting, or gate out. This is because you are going to be snared a good portion of the fight anyway due to Torpor. Obviously there are rare occasions where you have to turn your back on a mob, but you can avoid turning your back on mobs most of the time if you are paying attention. You want to keep the mob in front of you anyway, even on non-ogres. This is because dodge doesn't work if the mob is hitting you from behind. You still want to have the mob in front of you whenever possible.

[DMN]

Your fixation on this shit is really disturbing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your fixation on this shit is really disturbing.

You should learn to have a conversation instead of just throwing out random insults. It just makes you look silly.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

f just throwing out random insults. It just makes you look silly.

Get a mirror.

And I'll take silly over unhinged.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Get a mirror.

And I'll take silly over unhinged.

Let me know when you want to have a productive conversation, instead of senseless name calling[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]