Getting started on p99 as a Rogue.

[AnthonyHJ]

As a lvl 9 rogue, I have been thinking similar things.

One thing I noticed though; daggers of a certain level always seem to have a bad DPS compared to swords of the same type. Fine steel daggers are 3/19 (so just under 1/6) compared to 6/28 (just over 1/5) for a fine steel long sword. Even a standard rapier is 5/25 for a good 1/5 ratio and that's at least one 'class' lower than fine steel.

What is the advantage of the dagger given this disparity? I understand once you get weapons with stat bonuses, since daggers tend to have rogue-friendly stats, but is there something I am missing here which makes up for the lower DPS of a dagger?

[Breeziyo]

Originally Posted by AnthonyHJ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As a lvl 9 rogue, I have been thinking similar things.

One thing I noticed though; daggers of a certain level always seem to have a bad DPS compared to swords of the same type. Fine steel daggers are 3/19 (so just under 1/6) compared to 6/28 (just over 1/5) for a fine steel long sword. Even a standard rapier is 5/25 for a good 1/5 ratio and that's at least one 'class' lower than fine steel.

What is the advantage of the dagger given this disparity? I understand once you get weapons with stat bonuses, since daggers tend to have rogue-friendly stats, but is there something I am missing here which makes up for the lower DPS of a dagger?

Backstab is only usable with a piercing weapon in your main hand. You get it at level 10. Will give you much more damage assuming you're behind your target.

[AnthonyHJ]

Originally Posted by Breeziyo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Backstab is only usable with a piercing weapon in your main hand. You get it at level 10. Will give you much more damage assuming you're behind your target.

Fair enough; I'm level 10 now and back-stabbing, but I notice that a fine steel rapier gives a better ratio than a fine steel dagger and a higher damage overall, which must be better for backstab. So why would I choose a dagger over a rapier? In fact, some of the spears give 6 damage, for a better DPS and a better backstab.

I am sure that I am missing something here...

[Breeziyo]

Originally Posted by AnthonyHJ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fair enough; I'm level 10 now and back-stabbing, but I notice that a fine steel rapier gives a better ratio than a fine steel dagger and a higher damage overall, which must be better for backstab. So why would I choose a dagger over a rapier? In fact, some of the spears give 6 damage, for a better DPS and a better backstab.

I am sure that I am missing something here...

in this case i guess the rapier is just all around better.

this:

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically, what you're looking for in a primary weapon is this:
1) Piercing weapon (so you can backstab)
2) High damage (so your backstabs do a lot of damage)
3) Low delay (so you get more benefit from damage bonus, although at low levels this won't be as important)
4) Magic weapon (most weapons you'll find in EC are magic, but just make sure; you won't be able to hit a lot of stuff, like ghouls, without magic weapons)
What you're looking for in a secondary weapon is just anything you can put in your secondary slot with a good damage/delay ratio. They don't have to be piercing and it doesn't matter if the damage is high or the delay is low as long as the ratio is good. The secondary weapon isn't as important as the primary.

is all you need to worry about. if a ratio is somewhat the same but one has higher damage i'd use the higher damage piercing weapon in my main hand.

[sox7d]

/who all chardok wizard


/tell <wizard> hey, i just joined the server, if you're not doing anything could you port to gfay real quick between pulls and unload a jagged chokidai spine if any are rotting? (sidenote: they are.) i just got rejected from a group for using a dagger* [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


???


profit

[Lucia Moonglow]

Originally Posted by AnthonyHJ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fair enough; I'm level 10 now and back-stabbing, but I notice that a fine steel rapier gives a better ratio than a fine steel dagger and a higher damage overall, which must be better for backstab. So why would I choose a dagger over a rapier? In fact, some of the spears give 6 damage, for a better DPS and a better backstab.

I am sure that I am missing something here...

Early on, especially when backstab skill is low, it's possible that you'll have better DPS using a 1HB/1HS than a piercer, especially if you find a good one early on. Also, it's the damage on the piercer that's important, not its damage/delay. If you're really crazy, you can have a piercer on your cursor, and then swap it into the slot each time backstab comes up, then swap back immediately after.

Also, remember that even if you're not behind an enemy, backstab gives you an extra attack and only works with a piercing weapon, so that extra attack every 8 seconds could make up for a slightly lower DPS.

By the mid levels, backstab does so much more damage than normal attacks that it's always preferable to keep a piercer in the main hand, even if the DPS is slightly lower (unless you prefer the previously-mentioned juggling act).

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by Lucia Moonglow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Early on, especially when backstab skill is low, it's possible that you'll have better DPS using a 1HB/1HS than a piercer, especially if you find a good one early on. Also, it's the damage on the piercer that's important, not its damage/delay. If you're really crazy, you can have a piercer on your cursor, and then swap it into the slot each time backstab comes up, then swap back immediately after.

Disregard everything said here please. 1hb / 1hs are acceptable for main hand levels 1 to 9, but are still a bad idea because you need to train your piercing skill anyway. Seriously, use a piercing weapon main hand throughout your rogue career. Ratio and damage are the big factors in picking a backstabbing weapon. High damage, slow weapons are no fun to use. Low damage, fast weapons are usually bad also. Finally, weapon swapping for backstabs will lower your dps and take focus off your positioning, which is the most important part of the class. Learn how push works!

This is my recommended main hand upgrade progression, from worst and cheapest to best and most expensive. There is worse weapons than my worst, but they all suck. SBD is a sentimental weapon for me, might not be cheapest. Snare proc is something you want in your bag though. Getting a spine should be your first priority. Should only cost 100p if you have to buy it.

Serrated Bone Dirk - 8/27
Jagged Chodakai Spine - 9/25
Slime Coated Harpoon - 10/25
Bone Razor - 10/22
Trak Tooth - 10/20
Rapier of Oriin - 12/25
Seb Dirk - 10/18
Ragebringer - 15/25

*Note that I don't recommend getting a trak tooth (can't offhand) or rapier (expensive and hard to sell), stopping at bone razor until you can quest Ragebringer is sufficient imo.

Offhand weapon progression. Only ratio (dam/del) matters here. Higher ratio is better.

Anything lol
Jade Mace (CSS ratio, no stats)
CSS (best bang for buck)
Seb Dirk (favorite)
Edge of the Nightwalker (over priced)

[Cecily]

My best tip for new rogues:

Don't spend your training points leveling 1-10 on anything besides 1 point skill unlocks. When you hit 10, spend your glorious pile of pixels on capping your backstab skill or getting it however high you can afford. Will save you literal hours of backstabbing practice in the field and let you appreciate the huge dps boost. And once the skill caps, it'll always stay capped through grouping with no additional effort.

[AnthonyHJ]

I had heard that getting Pick Locks up to 11 was basically a requirement or else you can't use it. Not that I have used it yet, but it seems like it should be one of the defining rogue skills, so not getting it to a useful level sounds like I'd be doing myself a disservice.

As to backstab; I actually levelled it up in the field, but I'd been saving all of my skill points (other than the ones I spent getting Pick Locks to 11) and really wish I had been given that advice earlier. The difference between seeing 10 dmg (at 10 Sneak Attack; starting value) and 40 dmg (or higher) really made me wish I'd used training points...

Speaking of Pick Locks, is it worth going to Befallen to get my skill up or do most groups running dungeons with locked doors prefer to have keys in case they need to bail out in a hurry?

[Jimjam]

Don't bother training pick locks at low level.

When you train a skill it starts at the number of points equal to your level.

Unless you plan on going into befallen at low level you simply won't need pick lock for a long time.

My recommendation would be to wait until you are like level 50 and train it then. That way you will start at 50 skill instead of 11 and you won't have to spend as many skill points on it and there will be more locks that you will be able to practice on. As a barbarian pick lock will be useful for getting in to The Hole and is advantageous for a couple of higher level dungeons too.