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  #31  
Old 07-15-2018, 08:06 PM
Vigilance Vigilance is offline
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Man, I can sympathize. I started a Necro but a part of me keeps screaming Mage too. I dunno why. There's something about having a really strong pet that appeals. But it also seems like the Mage strategy is to just summon, let it solo a mob, and reclaim when it's low, and Idk how fun that will be for 60 levels of solo.

A Necro on the other hand can root rot, fear kite, charm, or nuke, and it can get to harder to reach places more easily thanks to FD.

I wish my stupid lizard brain could just make a decision.
  #32  
Old 07-16-2018, 06:37 AM
Yoink1986 Yoink1986 is offline
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Best way to play Mage is not worrying bout that max so bullshit. Play to have fun. Duo/ trio it up. Find other pet classes. Find a sham and just kill. I did this and expd fast and still play my Mage.
  #33  
Old 07-16-2018, 03:50 PM
Raev Raev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Snare, mez, heals, burst and sustained dps don't work in groups?
The problem is that the Necro is mediocre at everything on that list.
  • Snare: unnecessary most of the time and Darkness is high mana
  • Mez: Single 24s mez with 5s cooldown that is somehow resisted much more than an enchanter or bard
  • Heals: very low throughput and mediocre efficiency. I couldn't get dispel to consistently hit slot 1.
  • Burst damage: irrelevant for XP groups in this era, and necros aren't great at it anyway compared to Magicians, melee with discs, or charming enchanters
  • Sustained damage: bottom DPS without charm, and Necros aren't great at charming without tash, PBAE stun, and more than one mez.

I have a L49 necro that I have played almost exclusively on the Dead side of Guk where he has full use of his abilities. He's solid solo, and it's great to FD out of bad situations rather than having to use the WC cap. But in practically every group scenario I've found him inferior to my enchanter, my monk, or both. If I ever get him a VP tap stick that should help some, but there is a reason Necros got so much in Luclin.

Quote:
There's something about having a really strong pet that appeals.
Enchanters get the strongest pets, you know.
Last edited by Raev; 07-16-2018 at 03:52 PM..
  #34  
Old 07-16-2018, 04:05 PM
Vigilance Vigilance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Enchanters get the strongest pets, you know.
True, I've just played one before. I know they're by far the strongest clothie, but I'd rather do Mage or Necro.
  #35  
Old 07-16-2018, 07:31 PM
Haghar Haghar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The problem is that the Necro is mediocre at everything on that list.
You're missing the point. No one is arguing against what you just said. What Jimjam first said, however, was that they were useless. Useless is farrr from mediocre.
  #36  
Old 07-17-2018, 03:42 AM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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-125/tick heal over time isn’t mediocre. I stopped trying to dispel and just tap over time heal it back (not hard or really that mana taxing)
-the snare is perfectly functional, i generally use 2nd lowest
-ghetto mez is not meant to replace full mez, it’s a side-bar perk that helps with cc along with 3 minute root. I’ve never had a problem with resists
-sustained dps low? Bottom??? Rofl, no. Properly buffed Rog pet alone puts out comparable dps to a mid-50s monk and is better by itself than most rangers/warriors. When not charming that pet is always there and always icing on the cake.
-burst burn dps unless you can use undead nuke is meh but with lich, nuke over time potential is actually higher than mage Druid or wizard

Necro played properly is a class with medium high tier sustained dps and the ability to cc root or mez in a pinch. Additionally — trivially easy ability to permanently sustain 125/tick heal and just tap back health with a fast-ish tap over time.

Necro dps (pet + nukes/taps) is actually quite good.
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:49 AM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Regarding nuke potential - compare high level mage vs high level necro

Mage:
-best conjuration nuke is 3.4 dmg per mana if conj spec (825 dmg)
-20 mana/tick medding
-up to 49-51 mana/tick medding with ALL buffs (not likely gonna happen often)
-benefits from c2 (necro doesn’t) if present

Assume you manage to hit all med ticks to keep math simple. Every lost med tick favors the necro.

Med = 200 mana/min = 680 damage/min (
C2 = 310 mana/min = 1054 dmg/min
Add POTG = 370 mana/min = 1258 dmg/min
Add bard = 490 mana/min = 1666 dmg/min


Necro:
-non-undead nuke (evoc) if alteration spec is 2.4 dmg per mana
-undead nuke if alteration spec 2.9 dmg per mana
-20 med a tick
- +20 mana/tick 49 lich vs +34/tick demi lich
-doesn’t benefit c2
- +2 mana tick on rune

Lich vs standard mob (vs undead):

Med + self buffs = 420 mana/min = 1008 (1218) dmg/min
Add POTG = 480mana/min = 1152 (1392) dmg/min
Add bard = 600 mana/min = 1446 (1740) dmg/min

Demi lich vs standard mob (vs undead)

Med + self buffs = 560 mana/min = 1344 (1624) dmg/min
Add POTG = 620 mana/min = 1488 (1798) dmg/min
Add bard = 740 mana/min = 1776 (2146) dmg/min

For mage this works out to a dps range of 11.3-26.76 dps averaged over time in a chain pulling group with no down time. Higher functional dps if not literally always killing.

For necro this works out to a dps range of 16.8-29.6 (20.3-35.8) dps averaged over time in a chain pulling group with no down time. Higher functional dps if not literally always killing.

_._._._._._._

Discussion:

This is simply a comparison of DD damage potential. It does not address the power discrepancy between pets (mage obviously better). Necro rogue pet in seb tends to hover in the 45-55 sustained dps range. 57 earth pet (better dmg than 54 water) hovers in the 60-70 sustained dps range. Mage also have potent DS which is hugely efficient dmg/mana. Necro? Depending on tank aggro and length of fight necro dots are a lot more efficient and there are several short dots that still work out better on fights in seb and in some groups where mobs die slow enough to make them worthwhile.

So yeah - even without charm necro pet + nukes are nowhere near bottom dps. My pet alone in my last group was putting out roughly the same dps as the 58 epic/tstaff monk with shaman buffs and 86% buffed haste who was pulling for us. I added about another 15-20 dps on top of that between tap dots and nukes vs non undead - but I was also busy healing and managing cc or I could have pumped out more.

Necros have a strong toolkit.

Fun class.
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  #38  
Old 07-17-2018, 09:06 AM
Ostepop Ostepop is offline
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Not sure if you aim to raid at some point. If I remember correctly, raiding as a mage in this era consists of making mana rods, playing taxi with CotH, and being on dragon faction for faster ntov and Yelinak. A guild only ever needs one mage online.
Also, pet control is a horror in AE heavy raids without /pet hold. Not sure what rules guilds here have on pets in raids.

Writing this made me seriously nostalgic about playing my mage. Haha!
  #39  
Old 07-17-2018, 07:02 PM
Raev Raev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troxx
My pet alone in my last group was putting out roughly the same dps as the 58 epic/tstaff monk
It sounds like you are basing your conclusions on a mid 50s xp group. Necros aren't very gear dependent, so they work pretty well there. I haven't leveled a P99 toon in quite some time, so I'm thinking about something like the myconid spore king or Halls of Testing with L60 characters. And Necro just doesn't keep up there.

Even in Kunark I was usually hitting 70 dps on my Monk at the spore king, with capped strength and haste being the main difference. In Velious that's up to maybe 95, and will be pushing 110 if the 2HB upgrades and triple attack ever go in.

Meanwhile the Necro is getting 50% resists on anything not a lifetap or lure dot and the skeleton is struggling with the higher AC. If you happen to be rolling PAL/SHM/NEC or similar then you have time for your lure dots to tick and you might hit the damage of a Kunark monk. In a full group moving quickly you are stuck with Touch of Night at under 2:1 (at least you have the extra HP to keep shadowbond up) and are probably in the 60ish dps range, which is about comparable to a Kunark Ranger or Warrior and well behind the Velious versions.

You are of course welcome to post some parse from your necro in a higher level area proving me wrong.
  #40  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:12 AM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Have you played a high level necro at spore king? I have. Next time I’m there I’ll fetch parses. Those mobs live long enough that dots (several of which have big negative resist mods on them) are viable — unless you’ve got velious raid geared melee slumming in a kunark dungeon they are woefully overgeared for or have a haste quadding enchanter pet. 70+ combined dps would not be a challenge there.

The pets struggle less with higher ac than I think you appreciate - especially if there’s a shaman or Druid there to cast a str buff.

PS: trying to use your velious raid geared monk as some baseline/metric to determine who is “bottom sustained dps” is amusing. The raid scene is a different monster altogether. As you’ve already pointed out, casters do not scale well with endgame gear - but that’s not really relevant for 99.9% of the game.
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Last edited by Troxx; 07-18-2018 at 03:17 AM..
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