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  #121  
Old 01-28-2022, 07:00 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by karadin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Loramin I respect your point of view here but I also think you are completely misinterpreting this rule.

Monopolies were definitely classic. Many of us lived through it for VP, ST, and VT key days. The monopolization in the disruption handbook had nothing to do with what we're talking about here.
Of course guilds had monopolies: on most servers there was one top guild in VP, ST, etc., and other guilds only gained access in subsequent expansions. On my server (Bristlebane) that guild was Club Fu.

But we're not talking about that, we're talking about camps, and those were not monopolized by guilds on live.

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Originally Posted by karadin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
That was more like taking an entire zone or large area for yourself. If you were camping a single mob and handing the camp off to guildmates, there was nothing wrong with that. It's how the game was always played.
The GM guidebook headline is literally "Contested Spawn Complaints" not "contested zone or large area complaints".

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Originally Posted by karadin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
If you petitioned a GM because you thought you were entitled to a camp someone else was killing at and wanted to pass to a guildmate they would tell you to kick dirt.
Again, we have the single opinion of someone who's literally been playing a re-creation that's existed longer than the original ... and we have the actual (original) book used by the GMs.
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Last edited by loramin; 01-28-2022 at 07:16 PM..
  #122  
Old 01-28-2022, 07:08 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Of course guilds had monopolies: on most servers there was one top guild in VP, ST, etc., and other guilds only gained access in subsequent expansions. On my server (Bristlebane) that guild was Club Fu.

But we're not talking about that, we're talking about camps, and those were not monopolized by guilds on live.
So you are saying monopolies were a thing on live, and guilds were the ones who had them. Again you make points that go directly against your argument. If you are suggesting Idol camp specifically wasn't monopolized on live, that is not really relevant. Idol camp being monopolized is a consequence of the custom P99 raiding rules. If you want this camp to stop being monopolized, the answer is not changing the PnP rules, it is making P99 more classic by reducing the custom raiding rules and custom clickie nerfs.

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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The GM guidebook headline is literally "Contested Spawn Complaints" not "contested zone or large area complaints"!

Again, we have the single opinion of someone who's literally been playing a re-creation that's existed longer than the original ... and we have the actual (original) book used by the GMs.
The official GM guidebook is also not really relevant to P99. It was designed around the assumption that the game would have full time paid GMs who could consistently aid players with resolving issues. Our server can't emulate that part of classic Everquest, so we cannot use those rules. That is why the PnP gives more power to the camp owner, in the hopes that they can act as an arbiter in a GM's place when disputes occur.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-28-2022 at 07:10 PM..
  #123  
Old 01-28-2022, 07:19 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
So you are saying monopolies were a thing on live, and guilds were the ones who had them. Again you make points that go directly against your argument. If you are suggesting Idol camp specifically wasn't monopolized on live, that is not really relevant.
You are not this stupid. Long-winded maybe, but not stupid. So surely you understand there's a difference between locking down a regular mob v.s. being the only guild on the server capable of killing Trakanon ... right?

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The official GM guidebook is also not really relevant to P99.
It's only relevant if the goal of this place is to be like live was ... but it's not like that is the entire goal of this place or anything (/em looks up at the upper-left corner) ... right?
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  #124  
Old 01-28-2022, 07:25 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You are not this stupid. Long-winded maybe, but not stupid. So surely you understand there's a difference between locking down a regular mob v.s. being the only guild on the server capable of killing Trakanon ... right?


It's only relevant if the goal of this place is to be like live was ... but it's not like that is the entire goal of this place or anything (/em looks up at the upper-left corner) ... right?
You do know that VP keys are acquired by killing "regular mob" camps, right? If a single guild is locking down VP, they are probably monopolizing the Pained Soul camp, for example, to make sure all of their members and alts can get in to VP and kill dragons. Trakanon teeth are only one part of the VP key quest. Admitting there are guilds monopolizing VP on live during 2000 implies monopolization of the VP key camps in 2000 lol. And please do not try to argue that Pained Soul is not a "regular mob" camp because the only thing it drops is a raid specific item. If the exception to the monopoly rule is raid specific items, then idol would be included in that exception anyway, because idol is only really used on a regular basis in raiding.

As for your second point about the GM rulebook, it has nothing to do with P99, because we literally can't get the number of GMs that live had. I am not sure why you think it is relevant. Your earlier point about the /random idea in the GM rulebook relied on a GM being present to arbitrate the /random. If a GM is not present to arbitrate the /random, that entire section of the GM rulebook is not relevant, due to the GM condition not being met. Of course if two players can solve their issue with a simple /random roll, then neither the GM rulebook or the PnP was necessary in the first place, so it doesn't matter if the camp owner rule was in the PnP or not.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-28-2022 at 07:54 PM..
  #125  
Old 01-28-2022, 07:28 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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idk what you guys are talking about exactly but it's fun on pvp servers to fight over VP key spawns.
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  #126  
Old 01-28-2022, 07:32 PM
Ripqozko Ripqozko is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
idk what you guys are talking about exactly but it's fun on pvp servers to fight over VP key spawns.
Red is dead , hope that helps.
  #127  
Old 01-28-2022, 10:07 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You do know that VP keys are acquired by killing "regular mob" camps, right? If a single guild is locking down VP, they are probably monopolizing the Pained Soul camp, for example, to make sure all of their members and alts can get in to VP and kill dragons. Trakanon teeth are only one part of the VP key quest. Admitting there are guilds monopolizing VP on live during 2000 implies monopolization of the VP key camps in 2000 lol. And please do not try to argue that Pained Soul is not a "regular mob" camp because the only thing it drops is a raid specific item. If the exception to the monopoly rule is raid specific items, then idol would be included in that exception anyway, because idol is only really used on a regular basis in raiding.
Trakanon was the bottleneck: no one was failing to get into VP on live because they couldn't do Pained Soul ... they were failing to get in because the top guild on their server could kill Trakanon and they couldn't.

Again, guild's "locking down" top content (ie. entire zones gate-kept by raid mobs) was 100% classic. Guilds trading turns to keep a spawn point monopolized for weeks on end 100% wasn't.

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
As for your second point about the GM rulebook, it has nothing to do with P99, because we literally can't get the number of GMs that live had. I am not sure why you think it is relevant. Your earlier point about the /random idea in the GM rulebook relied on a GM being present to arbitrate the /random. If a GM is not present to arbitrate the /random, that entire section of the GM rulebook is not relevant, due to the GM condition not being met. Of course if two players can solve their issue with a simple /random roll, then neither the GM rulebook or the PnP was necessary in the first place, so it doesn't matter if the camp owner rule was in the PnP or not.
That's like saying we don't have shitty servers that come down all the time, so we can only have raid mobs once per whatever-their-timer is. But that's false: the staff implemented earthquakes, which aren't "classic" ... but are clearly "more classic" than having nothing at all.

Similarly here I agree we can't do exactly what the GM guide says ... but that doesn't mean we can't look to it for clarity as to what live was like, so we can do our best to simulate it here.
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  #128  
Old 01-28-2022, 10:24 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Trakanon was the bottleneck: no one was failing to get into VP on live because they couldn't do Pained Soul ... they were failing to get in because the top guild on their server could kill Trakanon and they couldn't.

Again, guild's "locking down" top content (ie. entire zones gate-kept by raid mobs) was 100% classic. Guilds trading turns to keep a spawn point monopolized for weeks on end 100% wasn't.
We aren't talking about the bottlenecks for the VP key or raiding in VP. We are talking about "normal mob" camp monopolization lol. Please stop changing the topic to try and avoid admitting you are wrong.

If pained soul was as rare on live as it was on P99, you are looking at an average of like 20 hours per pop. That is like 1 key per day. Trakanon drops like 4 or 5 teeth, so they are pretty similar in terms of how many drop per week. On live, the following "regular mob" camps must have been monopolized by the top guilds trying to get into VP at minimum: https://wiki.project1999.com/Pained_Soul and https://wiki.project1999.com/Rotting_skeleton . Unless you want to try and claim top guilds were not monopolizing VP keys, you must admit that they were monopolizing these two "normal mobs" to get enough keys. Therefore, guilds monopolizing certain "regular mobs" for raiding is classic. Yet again, you prove my point and fail to see it lol.

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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
That's like saying we don't have shitty servers that come down all the time, so we can only have raid mobs once per whatever-their-timer is. But that's false: the staff implemented earthquakes, which aren't "classic" ... but are clearly "more classic" than having nothing at all.

Similarly here I agree we can't do exactly what the GM guide says ... but that doesn't mean we can't look to it for clarity as to what live was like, so we can do our best to simulate it here.
Except we can't look to it for clarity, because it is impossible for us to get the number of GMs required to make the guidebook work. It is literally irrelevant, because it is a guidebook for a server with full time paid GMs, which our server will never have. Just because there are some things that COULD make P99 more classic, doesn't mean they can. For example, we COULD theoretically find all of the original servers and code. That would certainly make P99 more classic, but it isn't possible. Just like it isn't possible to get the correct number of GMs.
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Shamwowi Wipesalot - 60 Ogre Shaman
Bazgek Bonebreaker - 58 Troll Shadowknight
Do you have questions about Shaman races? Read my guide: https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwow...man_Race_Guide
Want to see Shaman videos? Check out my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFU...zEFJVBIH3-jUog
Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 01-28-2022 at 10:29 PM..
  #129  
Old 01-28-2022, 10:43 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Red is dead , hope that helps.
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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  #130  
Old 01-29-2022, 02:21 PM
karadin karadin is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Of course guilds had monopolies: on most servers there was one top guild in VP, ST, etc., and other guilds only gained access in subsequent expansions. On my server (Bristlebane) that guild was Club Fu.

But we're not talking about that, we're talking about camps, and those were not monopolized by guilds on live.



The GM guidebook headline is literally "Contested Spawn Complaints" not "contested zone or large area complaints".



Again, we have the single opinion of someone who's literally been playing a re-creation that's existed longer than the original ... and we have the actual (original) book used by the GMs.
You are misreading and misinterpreting the guidebook in my opinion. The contested spawn section reads pretty clearly. If someone is contesting a spawn, GMs will refer to the prior section regarding disruption to determine if any action should be taken. There is nothing in the disruption section about guidelines for passing off camps. Passing off a camp/spawn to a guild mate would not violate any part of the disruption guidelines and if you canít prove disruption there is no action for the GM to take.

I just donít see how the rules support your take on monopolizing a camp. If a group was monopolizing multiple camps or areas then that would fit. In fact it fits so well that this same rule was carried over to p99.
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