Paladin stats & race

[Danth]

You're not hitting 3500 mana on a lower/mid range-geared Paladin without severely ruining yourself as a tank. The wife's Shaman doesn't even have 3500 mana. 2000 mana is generally sufficient for normal functionality. 2500 mana should be fully adequate for any reasonable jobs asked of a Paladin in the level 60 group game. 3000 mana would be nice but I'm not sure a Paladin (outside high-end gear) can achieve that without making unacceptable trade-offs.

My Shadow Knight has been 60 for more than 6 years. This is relevant since Paladin gearing is nearly the same. Depending on the equipment I swap in and out it ranges from about 2000 to 2300 mana. I refuse to wear a Narandi crown (no graphic--I want my human winged helm) so I could gain some there, but regardless of what I did I wouldn't be getting past about the mid 2000's--same as Troxx reports, more or less. It's enough because if something goes wrong, I can't USE mana fast enough to require more than that, anyway. Within the length of time it takes me to run out, either a bad situation has stabilized or it's turned into a wipe. That's not theorycraft, it's multiple years experience doing a great deal of the upper-end nonraid content, often merely as a duo. Main area more mana would be nice would be solo'ing--which isn't such a concern for Paladins. Before the Shadow Knight I spent many years playing the Paladin extensively, and the considerations were always the same. Mana is nice, but only so long as it can be gained without ruining other statistics.

Numerous posters in this thread listed 1200 display AC as a nice value for non-raid content in this game. I agree with that assessment. My Shadow Knight, in its "duo set", reaches 1184 AC with typical self- and shaman-buffs. That's with 285 worn AC. It's on the lower side due to the SK epic having no AC, but acceptable because of the large amount of self-healing generated by the SK epic special effect. For unslowed, hard-hitting monsters (things that hit for 300's, 400's, etc) I'll stick on my 1H/shield till slowed and push the worn AC up to about 320, reaching display AC up into the 1230's.

I'm not saying don't gear for mana, I'm saying you shouldn't gear for mana at the cost of ruining yourself elsewhere. Gear with decent values in all areas (crystal spider eyes, etc) is highly valuable. Hybrids by nature need a lot of different statistics, so it's always a juggling act. With lower or mid-range gear it's unlikely you'll be totally satisfied with any individual statistic, and certainly not with all of them. Got to make do with what's available.

For the record, I haven't been in Karnor for a long time. Most of what the wife and I like to do is stuff like velketor castle-area golems, WW dragons, stuff in dragon necropolis, revamp-chardok, middle levels of skyshrine, the occasional trip to guardian wurms or deeper areas of sebilis, and so forth. I don't much care for raiding, but we're not bottom-feeding either.

Danth

[Raev]

WK, have you considered rolling a Battle Cleric? I've been really curious to try this build. The Cleric quest armors all have very nice armor class: the Templar (Giant) set has 219 AC, 13 STA, and 200 HP which compares reasonably with the Scaled Knights (Paladin Skyshrine) set at 188 AC, 39 STA, and 260 HP. So from a mitigation standpoint you should be right there. Your avoidance would be terrible, of course, due to lower defense and minimal dodges. So I would guess that a Battle Cleric would take about 20% more damage than a Knight, which is really not bad. The worst part would be the lower HP pool and CH efficiency, so let's say in total the BC requires 50% more healing.

However, the Plane of Sky mace should give about 10 mana per tick (15 with full dexterity, but good luck trying to get a primal brawl stick over Team Monk). That's one complete heal every 4 minutes. If we assume that heal goes off for 2800 HP or so, that's 70 HP/tick of regeneration or 11-12 healing per second. That means the BC is winning if he is taking under 30 damage per second (vs a 'normal' tank's 20). I haven't parsed NPC damage in a long time, so Troxx would probably be the guy here, but I'd guess this is pretty typical.

Of course, the Paladin would be doing much more damage, but the BC would have the advantage if the group got in trouble. And the BC would have some options to increase damage output, especially via damage shield (since fewer attacks would miss) and perhaps judicious use of the pet (by breaking mez before the first NPC dies, its hatelist never empties).

TLDR: I think reasonableness of the Battle Cleric build shows how badly Paladins are underestimated. But I just don't see how they have enough mana regeneration in this era to function as efficient healers, and I'm having trouble imagining a situation where an extra 2-3 superior heals save the day.

WK, how about you post some fraps of that mana pool being put to good use in a group situation? If your theory is correct, you shouldn't need more than 1 group session to do so.

P.S. Troxx, you need to hit the Halls of Testing!

[Snaggles]

With enough dex a Dawnfire is going to do 10-20dps average from the proc alone (1-2ppm x 585).

You could also go with a Poison Wind Censer gnome build and the cultural arms. With SCHW and those you can self-haste to 60%. Wear a fungi and just club away. Gale of Poison is nasty to get hit with but you have heals for days.

I'd say "it's going to slow down in the 50's" but soloing a pally to 60 isn't exactly a thrill so any sadist who can do that could probably be fine with a cleric...

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Numerous posters in this thread listed 1200 display AC as a nice value for non-raid content in this game. I agree with that assessment. My Shadow Knight, in its "duo set", reaches 1184 AC with typical self- and shaman-buffs. That's with 285 worn AC. It's on the lower side due to the SK epic having no AC, but acceptable because of the large amount of self-healing generated by the SK epic special effect. For unslowed, hard-hitting monsters (things that hit for 300's, 400's, etc) I'll stick on my 1H/shield till slowed and push the worn AC up to about 320, reaching display AC up into the 1230's. .

Separate post since I can't edit anymore:

If I wear all my highest-AC stuff and stack a group with best AC buffs (bard, etc) I'll get into the low 1300's, like 1315 or some such. I don't ordinarily do that because, as others including WhiteKnight have said, it becomes unnecessary past a certain point and starts to hurt other factors. Always a balancing act!

-----------------------------------

Raev: The wife used to play her Cleric with a mind towards defensive toughness/durability. Our own experience was exactly what you'd expect: It worked fine for normal XP-group monsters, but ran out of steam for tougher stuff where you really want the extra damage reduction and higher health pools of a proper tank type. Cleric (and--Paladin) damage mitigation can be difficult to fully gauge because as long as you have mana (clarity!) and are fighting things where stuns can land, chain-stunning massively reduces damage intake.

Danth

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Incoming small novel.



I have a 60 paladin which was my most recently created toon. It’s not my primary raid toon. He’s a fun alt, and no he is neither geared to be a warrior nor played as such. He’s a half elf and started off with a 35 wisdom disadvantage compared to high elf.

I made him half elf for 2 reason:

1) Tunare Diety for Natures Defender Quest. It looks cool as hell, was super easy to quest (he’s an alt - wasn’t going to do epic), has 45 ac (stupid strong) along with a comparable to epic stat spread and proc. If this wasn’t in game I’d have rolled dwarf.
2) FashionQuest. I hate the way high elf males in plate look. I gave up 35 wisdom for a tradeoff of +15 str +5stam/agility, +15 dex. The stat trade offs are debatable (I would have preferred the wisdom) but most importantly I don’t have run around looking like a half elf male in plate. Looking the way you want is the single most important stat. 10 of my starting stats were wisdom.

His magelo: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromir

If he were a high elf geared as he currently is he’d have 1975 mana from the 35 extra wisdom. I’ve already got my bp gems (need to give the stolen fungi back to my monk), the finances to buy the cloak, and nearly enough saves up for Narandi Crown. I need to tap into my inner “not lazy” to go get my 7/6 talisman. Imminent upgrades put me at this:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromirnext

If I were a high elf paladin I’d be at 2400 mana with these non-raid upgrades on the horizon. Othmir prexus totem next goal? 2600 mana.

Really my mana boils down to refusing to be a high elf and being unwilling to wear gear like a zero ac 7 wis/str mask as a tank class.

This whole discussion kicked off after you posted this magelo and asked what the first thing we noticed was:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Salahdin

The first thing I noticed was your bad ac despite clearly having some pretty decent overall gear quality. Clicking through your gear choices quickly explained it. You’re wearing a few dumb pieces that are dragging you down.



Heal over time has a 30 second cool down. You can’t exactly chain cast it even if you want to. Wave of Healing is actually weaker than wiki places it. It’s much less efficient than heal over time and only has situational use, the most important of which I’d argue is threat snap while topping off some group health. 220 heal isn’t going to save anyone. That leaves us with superior heal which is generally on my bar for emergencies where someone needs a faster blast heal. If I’m grouping with a healer worth their salt and not on a raid I don’t keep it mem’d. It’s got a slow cast time and if the ench is going down it usually won’t land in time - that’s what LoH is for. It’s also more expensive to cast and heals for a lot less total than our heal over time. That heal over time should be the only heal any 59+ knight uses outside of extraordinary circumstances. For those circumstances I keep other heals loaded but they have significant drawbacks in terms of insufficiency, inefficiency, and for one of them in being slow to cast.

So what does that leave us with?

-an amazing heal over time that is fast to cast and efficient with a 30 sec lockout
-the need to hold threat which is easy and cheap with a 12 mana spell
-the ability to stun as desired or needed (I keep 2 up always)
-the ability to root as needed
-lulls (not expensive)
-buffs to cast/refresh as needed
-rez to do rarely as needed
-a targeted rune which does actually have some uses. If puller is bringing in a few - tag me with rune and mobs will run to you instead

Having more total mana let’s you cast none of these more often over time unless you or your group has enough down time that one paladin can Med longer while the other would be sitting around full mana and not climb any further. My experience is that this scenario is the exception, not the norm. I usually roll with fast paced groups. The bigger pool just gives you more total reserve with which to operate. In a raid environment on big targets with aoe damage, that deeper pool is critically important.

If you play your paladin like a holy healing Gandalf with chain casting wave of healing and throwing around superior heals like they’re going out of style you’re just simply going to find yourself out of mana. If you’re using that extra mana on extra unnecessary aggro ... you’re going to just run out sooner and either force your group to stop to wait on you to Med or find yourself so low on mana you can’t do anything but flash of light. When that happens you’re NO better than a warrior with less mitigation, fewer hitpoints, and less dps.

My opinion is that knighting properly is balancing your mana usage while effectively using the tools at your disposal and keeping enough always on reserve in the tank to deal with the unexpected when it happens. So far I’ve gotten really good with working that balance with 1500 mana. I’m about to have 2k - or 2 extra HoTs in my hip pocket.

Mana is good. Wisdom is good. Our spellbook is what distinguishes us. At the end of the day, however, we’re still tanks. Tanks with low ac are mana sponges and tanks with low hp are less efficient to heal.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Salahdin (bumped up to level 60 for a better comparison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] )

Vrs

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromir

You now have..115 more hp, 60 more ac...I have 907 more mana. The difference of 115 hp and 60 ac isn't going to impact tanking greatly, but the 907 extra mana will help far more when needed.

Effectively Salahdin = same tank capacity as Mithromir, however Salahdin can out heal Mithromir almost 30% more over. Granted we aren't talking about a HUGH healing capacity in the first place, but 900 more mana = 4 more HoTs = 175 hp x 4 = 700 hp = 2800 more patch healing.

This is practically the whole point of what I am trying to say. Why gear for a tiny marginally better tank role (the difference at this stage of comparison is probably negligibly) when you could gear/race choice for tanking and mana pool depth.

As a bonus here's a blend of both our gear: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Saladhin_v2 but built more towards manapool. The difference now is only 94hp, 8 ac ( again an almost negligible difference in tanking) but I still retain a larger mana pool by 897 pt.

Further more if we go back to my wish list of what is quite attainable items for a non-hardcore raider:
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Salahdin_(WL) (mind you it is still a work in progress as those Crystal Spider Eyes do seem like a good choice) so I could see a non-hardcore raider getting a 3k mana pool while retaining their tanking capacity.

[Troxx]

But you’re still a gay high elf male in plate, therefore I win. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love how you completely ignore the actual talking points. More mana is only more good if your group is more bad and needs you to burn more mana to make shit work ... unless you’re raiding and thus not tanking in which case you should be playing a clear/dru/sham?

If you care to actually discuss the body of my post you quoted carry on.

Otherwise:

TLDR: You have some stupid ass gear. A zero ac 7 str/wis veil is bad mkay?

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TBH I may be wrong on Soothe; I know I had used it a lot in Seb in the past, but that was a long time ago and may have been changed. If so I take back that point.

tested at basement group in KC, Soothe was lulling basement mobs including Verix PH.

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[Danth]

The "WL" profile WhiteKnight linked is not materially different than what any other skyshrine-level (meaning midrange, middle-tier guild) Paladin is going to reach. A couple slots might differ here or there but not enough to significantly alter things. Mana pool is somewhat inflated only due to high elf with points in WIS at creation. A Human in equivalent equipment and more typical stat allocation would have about 2400-2500 mana with similar gearing, so we're right where I said we'd be and back to discussing what amounts to a couple of casts of celestial cleansing.

The point is--and what that profile illustrates--is how nobody's actually going to gear for HP/AC to the total exclusion of mana, or gear wholly for mana while entirely ignoring tank-type statistics. This entire discussion is more for fun than anything else. Most characters at a given gearing level tend to wind up looking fairly similar, stat-wise.


Danth

[Sweeper41]

Originally Posted by White_knight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Salahdin

My Paladin on blue....what do you notice? Only a few raid items, but stacked to 190 wisdom.

- Has more mana than HP.

- Has a bigger manapool than some full raid geared level 60 Paladins.

- Will have 200 wisdom with more raid gears

- Will have an even larger mana pool.

- Will have more functionality than a raid geared paladin with 130 wisdom.

Here is a wisdom build with items that are attainable without hardcore raiding (Also my wishlist) :
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Salahdin_(WL)

1 stm buff from a shaman and this build hits 200+ stm 1 str buff from a shaman = 200+

I think you get the jist as why wisdom is the only stat to put points in too

Having watched your videos as you solo stuff you hardly use any of your mana. You always root back up and spam Deepwater helm for heals. Or if you pull to much you root everything and camp out. I dont see the point of having more mana if your not using any of it. Yaulp cost next to nothing, you can use the lowest lvl root(30mana) Stuns? Sure but with Force being slow you'll just be using Stun(35mana) and Holy Might(60mana) the most. This is from a solo perspective.

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by Sweeper41 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Having watched your videos as you solo stuff you hardly use any of your mana. You always root back up and spam Deepwater helm for heals. Or if you pull to much you root everything and camp out. I dont see the point of having more mana if your not using any of it. Yaulp cost next to nothing, you can use the lowest lvl root(30mana) Stuns? Sure but with Force being slow you'll just be using Stun(35mana) and Holy Might(60mana) the most. This is from a solo perspective.

Forgot about this old thread till now.

Larger mana pool, coupled with DW helm = more fights before medding. Also you will find when you solo hard mobs i.e AM in lguk your mana pool will get very low.

I haven't really played much for 6-8 weeks now as I have been busy IRL - I however have an AM solo video somewhere. W̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶u̶p̶l̶o̶a̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶.̶

EDIT:

Couldn't find the video which is a bugger but I found the screenshots I took after some named in Lguk:

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AM was a PITA, he can go either way - cushy and easy or making you blow LoH/helm healing/rooting alot to get him down.

Only 2 named I have left on Undead side is Lord and Frenzy, I will return to this project once I am less busy - it's been fun.