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  #21  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:32 PM
Puluin Puluin is offline
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Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
PoG flute has +CHA on it. WInd still only modifies -MR on mezzes.


Lvl >>>>>>>>>> cha > anyhthing else for lull
My comments were meant as a comparison between a 60 bard, 60 enc, and 60 pal. Enc and pal have 200+ cha and 9/10 times its the 60 bard with 150 cha that has the most consistent ease with lulls on mobs 45-55

It has +8cha which I feel is insignificant in affecting overall resist rates.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Flute_of_the_Sacred_Glade

Also I realize people claim wind only affects -Mr on mez, but in personal experiences, especially in kael, my lull fail rate without using the flute seems to be about 25%
While using the flute it seems to be dropped to 5-10% less fail.
Basically if I throw on the flute, I can 99% be assured I won't pull a train due to critical fail.

I have intentionally spent full nights in kael not using the flute and a following night using the flute to see differences.

I have also noticed charm lands more consistent whIle using the flute as well.
Last edited by Puluin; 06-07-2019 at 01:37 PM..
  #22  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:40 PM
abyssalstalker abyssalstalker is offline
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This is fantastic work. I have heavily considered picking up a CHA set on my Cleric to use for lull situations since I can't regular invis. This data now cements that idea.

FYI, on my enchanter I have always used the spell Calm from the lull line and it's pretty miraculous. I can give KOS mobs a kiss and they won't aggro me. I never went for a higher or lower level version. Unsure if there are even benefits to them. Anyone have thoughts?

Edit: Please test at 250/255 CHA. I am extremely interested if it has a similar per point impact as up to 200, or if any at all.
Last edited by abyssalstalker; 06-07-2019 at 01:47 PM..
  #23  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:42 PM
A1551 A1551 is offline
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Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Nice work. So, you say these are immune to soothes...is that because they are actually flagged as immune or just because they have some kind of very large resistance? If they are actually flagged as immune, I wonder if that might affect the mechanics.
As another poster mentioned, they are immune by virtue of the spells not working on mobs past a certain level. I was concerned this would cause issues, but based on the actual results I think it is fairly safe to say the game just treats the immunity as a resist and then checks for a crit. It is certainly possible, if not likely, that something else goes on behind the scenes, like maybe the game reports each cast out as a resist, but in reality, behind the scenes some of the non crits are factoring as "immune" successes and then some as resists, and only checking for crits vs the resists. But I'd say it is pretty unlikely for many reasons. Of course I'd never rule it out completely.

A much more plausible shortcoming of my testing (which I do want to do another trial on when I have some time) is if there is a level component to the crit chance -- IE are higher level mobs more likely to crit resist than lower level ones. That would change the conclusions and make the rules less easy to weigh, although it wouldn't invalidate the findings as much as make them more complicated. It would turn the above analysis into more of a "worst case scenario" of when you're lulling high level mobs. My guess is the "level" component is factored in via the resist rate, ie, you get more crit resists on higher level mobs because you get more resists (and thus more chances to crit). But it is entirely plausible there is a double penalty and level increases the crit rate too!
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  #24  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:54 PM
A1551 A1551 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puluin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I don't have numbers or logs, but from appearances, I seem to have a much much easier time consistently landing lull on high level mobs compared to pal or enc.
I rarely have more than 150 cha and typically float at 141 during these lulls.
I've got a mid 40's bard and I really did feel like, even compared to my (almost) max cha enchanter, I could lull all day with very rare crit resists, with a cha in the ~110 range. I always hypothesized this was inherent to the song line to balance the very short duration of the song (ie, a bard often needs to lull and then re-lull multiple mobs before a pull where a pally/chanter/cleric stick it and are done). I wonder if this is my imagination, or by design, and or accurate for the era, haha. Regardless, not something im interested in testing! But I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if it was true.


Finally as to a 255 cha test, I'll do one with a sample of 200 as well. Except it'll be CHA 247 because that's what I got!
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  #25  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:57 PM
abyssalstalker abyssalstalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A1551 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Finally as to a 255 cha test, I'll do one with a sample of 200 as well. Except it'll be CHA 247 because that's what I got!
I'm willing to lend items that will make up the difference to get you to 255.

Please contact me and we can figure something out.
  #26  
Old 06-07-2019, 03:02 PM
Lojik Lojik is offline
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Propo playing again?
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  #27  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:24 PM
Zipity Zipity is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puluin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The mobs he tested this on were immune to the spell used due to mobs level. Soothe has a lower level cap.

From a bard point of view; we get 1 lull song that caps at 55? Will not work on mobs 56+... however I will not get agro off of the higher level mobs unless lull actually critical fails.

I don't have numbers or logs, but from appearances, I seem to have a much much easier time consistently landing lull on high level mobs compared to pal or enc.
I rarely have more than 150 cha and typically float at 141 during these lulls.
However, regardless of what other people say about wind modifier ( claims that it doesn't work ) I have personally experienced a consistent lower rate of critical fails while using the 25mod flute from PoG compared to no flute.
I have on multiple occasions lulled PoZís in Kael which are lvl 56. Also some lvl 56 neriads in SG canít definitively say Iíve lulled anything 57+ though!
  #28  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:12 PM
A1551 A1551 is offline
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Ok, abyssal actually hooked me up with a few things to bump my charisma to 255 (thanks!) and I was able to run another 200 attempts.

in 200 attempts, at 255 CHA, 12 crit resists, or a 6% rate.

Just as a reminder, the results from original test were:
95 Cha, 200 tests -- 71 critical resists (ie 35.5% crit rate)
200 Cha, 200 tests -- 15 critical resists (ie 7% crit rate)

So it sounds like CHA over 200 has a much reduced impact on crit resists, and it is possible it has none at all, although my money is on "much smaller impact." The differences are so small, I think substantially larger sample sizes would be needed to confidently elicit the differences. Unlike 95 vs 200, where a few crits here or there doesn't meaningfully change the results, comparing 200 vs 255 the difference between "does nothing" and "diminished returns" is very easily lost to a little bit of random noise.

I will, at some point, still do the test on mob level and crit chance. I'll probably just do one set of 200 attempts at either 200 or 95 cha vs a lvl 50 gate guard and compare it to the results I got vs the lvl 61 mob.

ps -- lojik! whats up!
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  #29  
Old 06-07-2019, 10:33 PM
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Interesting. At least it looks as though they have the huge stat efficacy drop off that happens at 200 stat points about right.

Even though 6% versus 7% doesn't seem that big, relatively speaking it's still a 17% lesser chance to get aggro.
  #30  
Old 06-08-2019, 01:44 PM
A1551 A1551 is offline
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Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Interesting. At least it looks as though they have the huge stat efficacy drop off that happens at 200 stat points about right.

Even though 6% versus 7% doesn't seem that big, relatively speaking it's still a 17% lesser chance to get aggro.
You're right it actually is a fairly big "difference" in terms of gameplay despite the minute change.

Another way to look at this, if you're fighting low blue mobs consistently and lull is resisting only 1/4 times (these numbers are pulled from my ass for the sake of an estimate only, I have no idea what it would actually be, although I feel like low blues generally rarely resist so this may even be conservative), with the Crit rates above, you'd basically be getting a crit failure every:

95 cha (35.5%) - Crit every 11.3 casts
200 cha (7%) - Crit every 57.1 casts
255 cha (6%) - Crit every 66.7 casts

(assuming I did my math right hah)

I mean, that makes CHA sound pretty valuable as a pulling aid right up to 255. However I still really want to emphasize that the 7% vs 6% is such a small difference for a sample size of 200 that it could easily be noise and it is possible there is not actually any benefit above 200. I seriously doubt this, but these numbers don't rule that out.

Will try and check if crit resist rate is inherently tied to mobs level tonight or tomorrow hopefully!
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