FTE Shouts: Rethinking Their Mechanics and Issue

Frieza_Prexus · #1 03-27-2013, 10:16 PM

With the relatively recent (Belated? Delayed? Past Due?) promise of FTE shouts coming soon (hopefully), I've been wondering if it might be beneficial to have the shouts occur under different circumstances for different mobs.

The Current Problem: It seems that many of the participants in raid encounters disapprove of the tedious and exacting nature of the FTE game. Indeed, various strategies have grown out of such a rule set specifically in order to maximize the current FTE scheme that requires only one person. DA tanking, FTE sniping with Antonian Javelins, and other such tactics, while currently legal, are not truly a perfect device for determining a true good faith engage with intent to kill.

The Proposed Solution (Read: not perfect, but less bad than it is now...): Specific mobs should only give their FTE shout when engaged by a specific number of players. For example, Trakanon might shout the name of the guild that is the first to have 4 players on his aggro list. Venril Sathir might require 3 or 4 (Also, fix him he was way deadlier See: Bugs).

The Reasoning: By forcing guilds to have more than one person on the aggro list, you create a situation where the mob is far less mobile, you force the guild to commit vital resources, and if someone wants to snap engage it's going to be very difficult to perform any kind of stall. This type of regime will, in my belief, move us closer to a more classic raid situation to ensure that FTE is claimed by people trying to kill the mob at the time of the engage as opposed to buying time for the engage to kill the mob.

Problems: Not Classic. Also, the current FTE scheme is very well entrenched. It may be difficult to move away from it in a manner that satisfies the general raiding population. Also, it may be difficult to determine what number of people is required for each mob.

For example, how many should aggro Gore before she shouts FTE? Should VS take more or less than Trak in terms of numbers to trigger the shout? This can be addressed in a number of ways. I would first suggest to use some common sense. Cazic Thule might require only a few to trigger, whereas it might be a good idea to put Trak at 4 or 5 because the goal is to FORCE guilds to commit to the engage, not pussyfoot around while people log in. In the case of CT, when you engage him there is no stalling due to the demanding nature of the kill. Trak and VS are quite a different story with DA classes able to stall them for nearly minutes at a time.

Conclusion: I submit that if mobs issue FTE shouts, only when a critical mass of players have aggroed them, that you will see cleaner engages with far less FTE sniping, which, is probably a good thing. While some mobs, say outdoor dragons, may not need such a shout (indeed, perhaps those mobs should have an "aggro shout" to indicate the pull has begun AND an FTE shout to indicate the engage?)

The goal is to force guilds to engage when they have a kill force. Under such a scheme stalling would be difficult, if not out right impossible. A single DA character cannot tank if the other 3 engagers are not also DA (due to the mechanics of DA). Who can afford to commit 4 clerics to double DA stall Trak? Such a system will force good faith engages and encourage straight forward play that does not rely on pinch timing, feign death, and Hail-Mary javelin throws.

YendorLootmonkey · #2 03-27-2013, 10:55 PM

Xasten, first of all, I wanted to say that I always enjoy your level-headed, rational, and well-thought out posts, so for that I commend you. Not speaking on behalf of my guild, I rather like your proposed mechanic of forcing a guild/raid to commit to the target and then a shout from the target identifying the first to commit (FTC).

For the outdoor dragons that are typically pulled, to prevent jockeying for aggro /ping-ponging during the entire pull, I would say an FTE shout is needed to identify who tagged first (different from the vague aggro message currently used which does not identify a player). The only remaining issue would be "is that dragon being kited"?

Would you propose a generally agreed upon timer (3 mins? 5 mins? varies by target?) between FTE shout and FTC shout after which the FTE shout is reset and the target is open to being yanked from the puller? It may change where raids set up camp to pull to, but it will take the guesswork out of who was ready to commit to the mob first and simplify encounter log review and intervention after-the-fact by GMs, who I'm sure have better things to do.

Frieza_Prexus · #3 03-27-2013, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would you propose a generally agreed upon timer (3 mins? 5 mins? varies by target?) between FTE shout and FTC shout after which the FTE shout is reset and the target is open to being yanked from the puller? It may change where raids set up camp to pull to, but it will take the guesswork out of who was ready to commit to the mob first and simplify encounter log review and intervention after-the-fact by GMs, who I'm sure have better things to do.

Honestly, I don't know. The problem of kiting out door dragons is something that's really got me baffled with regards to how to code something to prevent, or at least strongly discourage it.

One idea I had, very similar to yours, was to time how long it takes to pull a mob from its current spot to the normal camp. Say, ogre island for Faydedar. Find the fastest possible time it takes to pull him from his normal pathing area and add 45 seconds to it. If that time is exceeded then he does some sort of shout/disengage and informs people that he's on the market (just like you suggest) and cannot be engaged by the kiting guild until some further event (say the 2nd guild kites or something).

Of course, this solution is full of holes. You can move your camp, if you need more time, just camp out at a closer spot, "pre-kite" him to a corner of the zone. Etc. Etc.

To your specific suggestion, I think generally agreed timers for each mob could work, but I'm not sure that would be a huge improvement, the timers would have to be well-calibrated to account for different camps, roaming dragons, and so on. It's a bit of a pickle, and it might overly complicate it.

On the other hand, forcing a very specific and known timer on a pulling guild might provide a lot of security for the raid scene if everyone knows exactly how it works and the rules are clearly spelled out.

Back to the main idea, I'm not sure that Outdoor dragons and kites are a HUGE problem. At least not so much that they outright beg for some sort of modification from the current set up.

YendorLootmonkey · #4 03-27-2013, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Back to the main idea, I'm not sure that Outdoor dragons and kites are a HUGE problem. At least not so much that they outright beg for some sort of modification from the current set up.

Good point, I think there's enough cinematography going on with FRAPS during outdoor dragon pulls to deter even letting a competing guild perceive even for a moment that you are kiting.

For the mobs you're looking to focus on, I don't see any problems with the FTC mechanic. Logging in the right classes, final buffing, and the strategy around when to commit certainly makes the encounter far more interesting and competitive than just FTE.

I'm only half-joking because I know it would be poorly received, but too bad you couldn't take that a step further and make it so FTC goes to the first X people engaged on the target that did NOT log in from the same zone as the target. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Splorf22 · #5 03-27-2013, 11:26 PM

An idea I had previously, which no one really liked but I could never figure out why, is that whichever guild can get a player summoned first has the engage. Certainly for Trakanon it would work well I would think. And there can be no doubts in the logs.

YendorLootmonkey · #6 03-27-2013, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

An idea I had previously, which no one really liked but I could never figure out why, is that whichever guild can get a player summoned first has the engage. Certainly for Trakanon it would work well I would think. And there can be no doubts in the logs.

1) Have someone nearby just above low HP aggro range.
2) Wait for other guild to get mob to 96%
3) Summonee nukes himself into low HP aggro to get summoned.

Splorf22 · #7 03-28-2013, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) Have someone nearby just above low HP aggro range.
2) Wait for other guild to get mob to 96%
3) Summonee nukes himself into low HP aggro to get summoned.

It's a reasonable counterargument, Yendor, although I think it's not as easy as it sounds. I suppose with mallets and such you could consider it 'FTE at 97%' but the big point is all this DA tanking/stalling BS goes away.

Clark · #8 03-28-2013, 12:59 AM

Even though fte shouts aren't classic theyd save some headaches I'd imagine. Not sure which side I'm in support for though.

YendorLootmonkey · #9 03-28-2013, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but the big point is all this DA tanking/stalling BS goes away.

What are the holes in Xasten's "first to commit" idea we're not seeing?

falkun · #10 03-28-2013, 10:02 AM

First to Engage shouts (when implemented) will just remove the GM/CSR from the "FTE argument". Its automating a process that already exists.

As for the most recent example, the shout would have had the added benefit that TMO would have known, without a doubt, that FE had FTE and could have disengaged.

I'm not saying FTC is the wrong answer, but this server has adapted to FTE for a while now, and shouting will already address a current problem. Can we give this new system (whenever implemented) time to adapt and learn the implications before we try another new, untested method?

The server should have minimal coded rules, and maximum inter-guild communication. Its not the developers faults we can't agree to anything more than the absolute minimum game mechanics/server rules, we are at fault as players.