sham question PLZ ^^

[koros]

Do the math, there's no possible way to achieve higher sustained dps than with a JBB for a shaman. Also you reduce the variance in hp when fighting hard mobs. It's a no brainer.

[Cochonou]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only thing that really affects play is the size, ogre and troll can be super annoying in some vanilla dungeons

Dude has 2 level 60 shamans but doesn't know that shaman can shrink in dungeons. Keep on impressing me.

More seriously, you can pick up any class and do fine with shamans once 60 with torpor, malo, BoN and Spirit of the howler, but I would recommend you to go troll worshipping innoruuk.

This way, you can have the benefits of the regen (iksar and trolls both have the same regen numbers which is way higher than barbs and ogres). It does make a difference, even when you have torpor. Think of it as an extra fungi tunic.

The 2nd benefit from being a troll is that you can wear plate armor. JBB isn't game breaking, but it sure is handy at times. When leveling with epic, if you can have enough mobs to root / dot to cycle, JBB is useless, but try to kill a single mob with epic dot only and then do it with JBB only. JBB wins hands down in terms of time needed.

The 3rd benefit from worshipping innoruuk is that you will be able to have a clicky snare necklace. It sure isn't the best snare on earth and its duration is limited, but there are many situations where you will want a snare.

The ogre frontal stun immunity is really given too much value by many players but just go to WW and see those non ogres shamans soloing dragons. That should give you good insight on how game breaking (or not) that frontal stun immunity is ...

[Lojik]

Originally Posted by Cochonou [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude has 2 level 60 shamans but doesn't know that shaman can shrink in dungeons. Keep on impressing me.

More seriously, you can pick up any class and do fine with shamans once 60 with torpor, malo, BoN and Spirit of the howler, but I would recommend you to go troll worshipping innoruuk.

This way, you can have the benefits of the regen (iksar and trolls both have the same regen numbers which is way higher than barbs and ogres). It does make a difference, even when you have torpor. Think of it as an extra fungi tunic.

The 2nd benefit from being a troll is that you can wear plate armor. JBB isn't game breaking, but it sure is handy at times. When leveling with epic, if you can have enough mobs to root / dot to cycle, JBB is useless, but try to kill a single mob with epic dot only and then do it with JBB only. JBB wins hands down in terms of time needed.

The 3rd benefit from worshipping innoruuk is that you will be able to have a clicky snare necklace. It sure isn't the best snare on earth and its duration is limited, but there are many situations where you will want a snare.

The ogre frontal stun immunity is really given too much value by many players but just go to WW and see those non ogres shamans soloing dragons. That should give you good insight on how game breaking (or not) that frontal stun immunity is ...

I think pre canni iv and pre insta GCD cooldown the JBB was def a thing to be had. Do the math on torpor +canni IV and you'll see its probably slightly better to dot and canni more. JBB is still useful when you're low hp and waiting to torpor up, but its become situational now with canni iv. To do the same amount of dmg as bane of nife you have to cast jbb 8x (64 seconds.) In that time you can cast bane of nife, torpor and canni IV a bunch of times and be ahead in mana.

Also regarding the snare necklace, the fear undead one gets overlooked a lot. Yes it's way more situational, but you can put decide to put yourself in better situations. As an untwinked shammy leveling this thing singlehandedly got me from 40-53 averaging like 2-3 hours a level. Now with the warrens this quest is waaaay easy, you can probably get it by level 10, and its a much better leveling tool than the snare neck. Is it useful at 60? No not much outside of KC and HS, but neither is the snare necklace. Shaman already get tons of tools at 60 anyway, the big problem is just getting there and getting all those spells/clickies.

Also some dungeons are outdoors and can't shrink without using an expensive pot

[mgellan]

Originally Posted by Jarnauga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For info i play a barbarian. Never regreted it.

/agree ^^

Regards,
Mg

[brecon]

Every 14 ticks you need to refresh your epic, and it costs about 1.5 ticks casting time. Lets consider what you do between epics clicks.

If you chain clicked your JBB you will do 263 damage every 8 seconds...or about 2985 damage in 90 seconds. Assuming zero resists and zero bash interrupts, and assuming you don't cast anything else over this period. If the mob is not a summoner, then you will need to either keep rooting or eat some hits.

Bane costs 425 mana. It does 1648 damage in 42 seconds (7 ticks). So if you cast 2x Bane, you would do more damage than the JBB over those 15 ticks. Bane takes 5 seconds to cast.

To recoup the mana cost from bane (425 mana), you would need to canni 4 six times, taking about 15 seconds. You would then need to topor once (200 mana, 6 seconds) which means 3 more cannis to recoup the mana, taking 6 seconds to cast.

To Recoup:
Spam JBB: ~3000 damage in 1.5 minutes mana neutral, barring interrupts and reroots. No free time.

Bane, Canni dance and Bane: ~3200 damage in 1.5 minutes mana and hp neutral. The total time casting (barring interrupts) is 42 seconds.

Bane + Canni dance gives you almost 48 additional seconds in which you can cast additional buffs (Pox!), canni dance more to rebuff and refresh slow, etc.

Now, IF YOU WANTED, you could use those 42 seconds to cast a few JBBs. But this is why I don't think JBB is a game breaker. Bane + Canni provides more damage with less time and less root breaks than JBB, and give you more time (therefore more flexibility).

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Cochonou [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude has 2 level 60 shamans but doesn't know that shaman can shrink in dungeons. Keep on impressing me.

try to not troll outside of rnf.. you are a moron, casting shrink is a pain in the ass, I've been rez'd into a train more than a few times and died right after cus of idiots like you not paying attention at the solBent.

Originally Posted by Cochonou [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More seriously, you can pick up any class and do fine with shamans once 60 with torpor, malo, BoN and Spirit of the howler, but I would recommend you to go troll worshipping innoruuk.

This way, you can have the benefits of the regen (iksar and trolls both have the same regen numbers which is way higher than barbs and ogres). It does make a difference, even when you have torpor. Think of it as an extra fungi tunic.

The 2nd benefit from being a troll is that you can wear plate armor. JBB isn't game breaking, but it sure is handy at times. When leveling with epic, if you can have enough mobs to root / dot to cycle, JBB is useless, but try to kill a single mob with epic dot only and then do it with JBB only. JBB wins hands down in terms of time needed.

The 3rd benefit from worshipping innoruuk is that you will be able to have a clicky snare necklace. It sure isn't the best snare on earth and its duration is limited, but there are many situations where you will want a snare.

The ogre frontal stun immunity is really given too much value by many players but just go to WW and see those non ogres shamans soloing dragons. That should give you good insight on how game breaking (or not) that frontal stun immunity is ...

everything else besides your idiotic quote about thinking I dont know about shrink you agree with so IDK WHAT TO TELL YOU DIPSHIT.

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do the math, there's no possible way to achieve higher sustained dps than with a JBB for a shaman. Also you reduce the variance in hp when fighting hard mobs. It's a no brainer.

this guy has no idea what he's talking about, you are not doing the math properly, you do not account for the amount of heal/cani is required for both tanking/dpsing.

and finally, quoting This sessedrix level math because it is glorious and correct:

Originally Posted by brecon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Every 14 ticks you need to refresh your epic, and it costs about 1.5 ticks casting time. Lets consider what you do between epics clicks.

If you chain clicked your JBB you will do 263 damage every 8 seconds...or about 2985 damage in 90 seconds. Assuming zero resists and zero bash interrupts, and assuming you don't cast anything else over this period. If the mob is not a summoner, then you will need to either keep rooting or eat some hits.

Bane costs 425 mana. It does 1648 damage in 42 seconds (7 ticks). So if you cast 2x Bane, you would do more damage than the JBB over those 15 ticks. Bane takes 5 seconds to cast.

To recoup the mana cost from bane (425 mana), you would need to canni 4 six times, taking about 15 seconds. You would then need to topor once (200 mana, 6 seconds) which means 3 more cannis to recoup the mana, taking 6 seconds to cast.

To Recoup:
Spam JBB: ~3000 damage in 1.5 minutes mana neutral, barring interrupts and reroots. No free time.

Bane, Canni dance and Bane: ~3200 damage in 1.5 minutes mana and hp neutral. The total time casting (barring interrupts) is 42 seconds.

Bane + Canni dance gives you almost 48 additional seconds in which you can cast additional buffs (Pox!), canni dance more to rebuff and refresh slow, etc.

Now, IF YOU WANTED, you could use those 42 seconds to cast a few JBBs. But this is why I don't think JBB is a game breaker. Bane + Canni provides more damage with less time and less root breaks than JBB, and give you more time (therefore more flexibility).

[Troxx]

I never understood the infatuation some people have with JBB. Once you get a full complement of spells there are better things that you can be doing with your time.

[Cillaz]

IF you are starting fresh, iksar regen helps massively, when you have no pp or armour to twink with! I've not missed having JBB, it may of helped level pre epic though.
Don't forget, with epic you kill 4+ mobs at once. So factor in the time it takes to kill 4 mobs with JBB, rather than 1. Yeah JBB is faster over 1 mob, but is it over 4? Also JBB breaks root!
Also you can click epic then chain JBB, doesn't have to be one or other.
I dont have an opinion on JBB or not, play what you think looks best, all shams are the same once 60 and torpor. Just some things help more than others getting there.

[Cochonou]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

try to not troll outside of rnf.. you are a moron, casting shrink is a pain in the ass, I've been rez'd into a train more than a few times and died right after cus of idiots like you not paying attention at the solBent.

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

everything else besides your idiotic quote about thinking I dont know about shrink you agree with so IDK WHAT TO TELL YOU DIPSHIT.

I really wonder who is flaming and ranting here ...

Having torpor/canni/BoN more efficient than spamming JBB doesn't make JBB utterly useless to me. When a mob is low life and can be killed with 2 JBB casts, I'm personally happy to use my JBB rather than Baning it to death or clicking my epic and waiting for epic dot to finish it off.
Not game braking, but yet an argument which goes in favor of non iksars.

Originally Posted by Lojik

Also some dungeons are outdoors and can't shrink without using an expensive pot

Since we are pretty much talking about shamans 60 with torpor and BoN, I guess we can also consider Form of the Great Bear is part of the book. For pre 55 shamans, I guess we could discuss the expensive price of 20pp.

[Lojik]

Originally Posted by Cochonou [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Since we are pretty much talking about shamans 60 with torpor and BoN, I guess we can also consider Form of the Great Bear is part of the book. For pre 55 shamans, I guess we could discuss the expensive price of 20pp.

If you're leveling a shaman and it's not your first char, shrink pots probably won't be a big deal. But my shaman was still wearing banded pieces until at least the 40's. Unrest and Mistmoore both are outdoor dungeons and can be pretty precarious when trying to flee a train, and if you're using shrink pots you might go through em pretty quick with how often you have to zone trains. Expensive is relative.