Single mob camping rules?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by I Felt Nostalgic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I understand and I guess it would depend on if you were given any forum powers. If you are in any way able to create havoc, I think it would be fair to have you submit a formal application like guides do so you can be monitored if you decide to go rogue at any point.


"With great power comes great responsibility." ~ Uncle Ben

I honestly think the best way to do the rules here isn't in multiple different versions spread out across a bunch of forum threads. I think the best way is to have one place, in the wiki (which can format/display them better), on a page that's locked so only wiki admins can edit it (or maybe even only staff members; that's possible too).

As a wiki admin myself I already have the "power" to make that happen, so I wouldn't need any new privileges to work on such a project. But the "power" isn't really the issue. The issue is the staff has done things a certain way for ten years, and things have gone great (with some hiccups) for ten years here.

They're not going to want to even just move the rules into a single wiki page without thinking over all the possible repercussions, and they certainly aren't going to add rules that they've never even made explicit before today into the official rules without some thought as well. Like I said, I just hope they can find a win-win that lets them continue operating as successfully as they always have, while at the same time making more of the "secret" rules less secret ... and Menden's posting of those rules here gives me immense hope that that's possible.

[I Felt Nostalgic]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I honestly think the best way to do the rules here isn't in multiple different versions spread out across a bunch of forum threads. I think the best way is to have one place, in the wiki (which can format/display them better), on a page that's locked so only wiki admins can edit it (or maybe even only staff members; that's possible too).

As a wiki admin myself I already have the "power" to make that happen, so I wouldn't need any new privileges to work on such a project. But the "power" isn't really the issue. The issue is the staff has done things a certain way for ten years, and things have gone great (with some hiccups) for ten years here.

They're not going to want to even just move the rules into a single wiki page without thinking over all the issues, and they certainly aren't going to add rules that they've never even made explicit before today into a part of the official rules without some thought as well. Like I said, I just hope they can find a win-win that lets them continue operating as successfully as they always have, while at the same time making more of the "secret" rules less secret.

Well then... do I send an owl to Rogean and/or Nilbog?

[Isey]

I'm new to the server (as a regular player, popped in here and there before this more serious play session) and I've spent a lot of time at two camps : Sarnak Courier, single spawn point (20 hours over 5 days) and Ancient Croc, Uguk (level 30-37).

Not once, at either, were there ever a single problem - and tons of traffic at both. People are very polite and respectful and many will buff, and then ask if it wasnt too much trouble if they could be next in line and send them a tell.

Too many rules just makes it easier for a jerk to break them.

(stories:

1. I asked a level 50 on the AC camp if I could kill the Crocs, because they are decent XP, if he got to keep the loot. No problems.

2. I Once I sold a pair of GS Leggings for 100 plat to a guy who didn't want the XP there but really wanted the leggings for a alt. The 100p let him move on and me get the camp. The very next spawn was an AC, that dropped another pair. I tried to give him his money back but he refused and instead, he bought them off of me for full market price to give to another alt.

Anyway, think it's pretty simple and while these are lower level camps the same common sense and kindness can apply.

[Menden]

Originally Posted by Liia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I recently started to camp Alice 4 in PoM after not going there for a few years. A few years ago, 22 and Brenn/Grenn were the only 2 thrones dropper camp. . Due to some infamous like Svenn, Lunatick and others, those were considered 2 separated camps cause you didnt had line of sight on both camps. Now with the addition to Glonk/Grink is it now 4 camps?

I tried to avoid being a dick so far and claiming a camp while the the actual camper is away killing another mob. So, I would like to know if theres a ruling possible to be made there. Usually Brenn/Grenn is main room and if the farmer at least pull them all there it could avoid some problems, cause the dude sometimes leave that room for 15mins killing other PHs then gets back and consider it his camp and some drama may follow.

Anyway, I was wondering if you could make a ruling here Menden, it would be appreciated. Thanks

I'll defer to Llandris to give a ruling on this one, I have a decent understanding of the mechanics of that zone but I believe he has spent more time in it than I have.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can we talk about just this part? Would it maybe, just maybe, make sense to publish those rules outside of the in-game petition system (which then gets parroted and turned into pseudo rules passed around the forum)? In other words, can we put what you just wrote, in a more refined form, in the official rules?

I know you GMs like your rules ambiguity so that you have full discretion to make rulings, and you should have that discretion: but can't we get a win win here? Can't you define explicit, public rules that the whole server can be clear on ... while at the same time asserting "but we can do whatever the crap we want in game, we're GMs bitches!!!" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And FWIW I'd freely volunteer my time, in any capacity that I could be useful, to help make that happen. My time's not worth a lot since I'm not staff, but I'm a former Lit major (good at English editing) and wiki addict (good at wiki editing, if we wanted to put the rules in an admin-locked wiki page so we don't have a bunch of different copies floating around the forums ... which would be awesome).

Compiling out solid rules and judgements is above my paygrade. But my first post is a pretty clear guideline. Camp disputes that involve us are pretty uncommon at this point in time. Every situation is different also.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Based on those parroted rules passed around in forums, which Menden just summarized (they're not in the official rules document yet, but that post is a HUGE improvement), I'm going predict a ruling.

A multi-spawn camp is two NPCs close to each other (typically within line of site, and usually in the same room) in an indoor zone. PoM isn't an indoor zone, ergo it has no (multi-mob) camps. But the way Menden phrased things, it could be considered a "dungeon". Either way, the only potential "camp" that would qualify in that area would be the twins; all the other "camps" there are one mob per room.

Like any outdoor zone (or indoor/dungeon zone where a multi-spawn camp ruling doesn't apply) each player can camp a single spawn point: the gorilla, or the mouse, or Twenty-Two, or the twins (maybe just one, but since they share a room and PoM is arguably a dungeon I'd imagine they count as one camp).

You have to pick one and only that one is "yours" ... but you can still do the other mobs at A4 (or the rest of Alice), as long as no one else is claiming them as their one spawn point. If you pick the gorilla, and someone else picks Twenty-Two you can't kill Twenty Two ... but you can kill either the mouse or either one of the twins, as long as you beat the guy at Twenty-Two to be the "first to engage" them.

All of that is 100% separate from what the players consider to be "a camp", and the staff would of course encourage you to work things out with any other players there rather than bother them.

How'd I do?

Pretty good, here's how we expect players to behave when it comes to camps.

If a player/group is holding multiple camps in a zone, that's fine as long as no one else wants them. As soon as another player/group wants one the camps the holder gets the option which single camp they prefer. The new player/group gets to pick their camp and the rest become FTE unless both players/groups work out a deal to split them up. But players must communicate in some fashion so there is no conflict. So, what Loramin said was pretty darn accurate.


A more specific situation that comes up often is Bards and Nobles in hhk, many, many players consider this one camp. But based on the guidelines above, this is a dungeon type zone. So LOS/Agro guidelines come into play even though they are fairly close to eachother. So if a player is holding both and another player shows up, the original player needs to pick one.


Sirken always told me, camp in the room that has the target you want.

[Menden]

Originally Posted by Isey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm new to the server (as a regular player, popped in here and there before this more serious play session) and I've spent a lot of time at two camps : Sarnak Courier, single spawn point (20 hours over 5 days) and Ancient Croc, Uguk (level 30-37).

Not once, at either, were there ever a single problem - and tons of traffic at both. People are very polite and respectful and many will buff, and then ask if it wasnt too much trouble if they could be next in line and send them a tell.

Too many rules just makes it easier for a jerk to break them.

(stories:

1. I asked a level 50 on the AC camp if I could kill the Crocs, because they are decent XP, if he got to keep the loot. No problems.

2. I Once I sold a pair of GS Leggings for 100 plat to a guy who didn't want the XP there but really wanted the leggings for a alt. The 100p let him move on and me get the camp. The very next spawn was an AC, that dropped another pair. I tried to give him his money back but he refused and instead, he bought them off of me for full market price to give to another alt.

Anyway, think it's pretty simple and while these are lower level camps the same common sense and kindness can apply.

And that's how things normally go on the server, a few bad apples cause problems [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I'm glad you've been having great interactions with players.

[loramin]

Thanks for taking the time to respond Menden!

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[DromalPhrenia]

Originally Posted by Menden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A more specific situation that comes up often is Bards and Nobles in hhk, many, many players consider this one camp. But based on the guidelines above, this is a dungeon type zone. So LOS/Agro guidelines come into play even though they are fairly close to eachother. So if a player is holding both and another player shows up, the original player needs to pick one.

You probably know this, but HHK is an outdoor zone. I always thought counting it as a camp was a player-agreed thing, because no one on the server wants a single mob exp camp.

[Menden]

Originally Posted by DromalPhrenia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You probably know this, but HHK is an outdoor zone. I always thought counting it as a camp was a player-agreed thing, because no one on the server wants a single mob exp camp.

Yeah, that's why we say "open outdoor zone", since many dungeon type zones are outdoor like COM and Unrest.

Goblins are kinda weird. It depends which server you played on live there were different rules. Some said it was a single camp, others said it was 3-4 camps. We go by los/agro, so it could be 4 camps.. but who wants that? Guards are the same thing, agro/los. Players try to claim entire floors, doesn't work that way.

[TheAngryRogue]

I honestly did not expect this to be such a big post. Originally I just wanted clarification on a singular issue due to a lack of response to either /petition or /report (Which I now see is disabled. Message was hidden in a tiny spam chat window I have) after having what I thought was a proper camp taken over by someone else and being told to shove off. Then having a mod show up to chastise me when I do the same thing to someone else the next day.

Thank you all for your responses and time and I thank the forum mods/administrators for your patience with this post.

[wtsgoodtime]

Originally Posted by Menden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll defer to Llandris to give a ruling on this one, I have a decent understanding of the mechanics of that zone but I believe he has spent more time in it than I have.



Compiling out solid rules and judgements is above my paygrade. But my first post is a pretty clear guideline. Camp disputes that involve us are pretty uncommon at this point in time. Every situation is different also.




Pretty good, here's how we expect players to behave when it comes to camps.

If a player/group is holding multiple camps in a zone, that's fine as long as no one else wants them. As soon as another player/group wants one the camps the holder gets the option which single camp they prefer. The new player/group gets to pick their camp and the rest become FTE unless both players/groups work out a deal to split them up. But players must communicate in some fashion so there is no conflict. So, what Loramin said was pretty darn accurate.


A more specific situation that comes up often is Bards and Nobles in hhk, many, many players consider this one camp. But based on the guidelines above, this is a dungeon type zone. So LOS/Agro guidelines come into play even though they are fairly close to eachother. So if a player is holding both and another player shows up, the original player needs to pick one.


Sirken always told me, camp in the room that has the target you want.

Further questions on this. I logged into PoM yesterday (maybe 2 days ago?) and found A4 empty and down. After sitting for a few minutes, 1 halfing spawned and I went and got a pet and killed it. While waiting for the 2nd halfling to spawn, approximately 10 minutes later, a local friendly shaman (who I would normally find respectable) rolled up with /afk tag on. I didn't think anything of it as I am sitting there holding a charmed pet waiting for the 2nd halfling to spawn. A few minutes later, it spawns and the shaman instantly pulls and acts like nothing is wrong.

Now clearly I had the camp... it had been around 20 minutes past the first spawn and the shaman wanted the camp back. I won't name the shaman, but he can feel free to pipe up if he wants. He claimed he didn't know he was in a race. Well, ok, but two things: 1) I am sitting there with a charmed pet and I am there before you (you are 20 minutes late of first spawn). You should at least say something if you think there is a contest. and 2) You can't come back 20 minutes after the camp respawns and retake it with "I didn't know it was a race".

If I am wrong about this, please inform me of the correct rules.

Ultimately, since I don't want to be a dick, I just let him take the camp, broke my charm, calmed my pet, and logged off.

edit: Now my thoughts are these kinds of infractions are not worthy of petitioning someone. I also consider my server reputation when I let people push me off a camp. I'd rather the rules be clearer so I don't have to take a server rep hit nor cause someone to be suspended or banned because of some misunderstanding.