Spells: Mark of Karn

[Ele]

A few months before Velious, Mark of Karn should be nerfed to have a 5 minute recast time. Trying to find details on the changes over the relevant time span to "heal per hit" values. Also trying to find more details about any recast corrections.

Original heal 10hp/hit. From a thread posted May 19, 2000.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6290

I played with this spell a lot in beta. Its cast on the MOB, heals 10hp for anyone that hits the MOB, and best of all, it gets rid of whatever damage shield the MOB had up. High MR MOBs will resist it quite a lot though.

Nerf #1

------------------------------
September 19, 2000 7:00 am
------------------------------

After a great deal of consideration, we have concluded that the Mark of
Karn spell is imbalanced and requires correction. This spell's current
function makes melee classes without dual-wield far less desirable
members of the group. As such, the spell has had its duration
decreased, its recast-time increased, and its "heal per hit" value
decreased.

Thread from EQClerics discussing the nerf: http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1227

Hi all,

I spent a little time with both MoK and CE when I got on tonight.

As expected, MoK has a 5 minute recast along with the other changes speculated earlier today.

Celestial Elixir has been altered to heal 1200hp instead of 1000hp + cures. Not enough compensation in my opinion, but it fizzles tons less than divine light and has a better ratio, so it will probably replace MoK in my mem'd spells from now on.

I'm tiring of this...

/salute my trampled brothers and sisters

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1186

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1173

Posted on Whineplay by me and anywhere else I can post it...

http://boards.station.sony.com/everq...ML/015544.html

============================
I personally suspected it might be nerfed, but never to this degree. I believe this is an extreme overreaction.

1. 6hp/hit. Now 60% of effectiveness.

2. Haste bugs fixed. Hard to quantify this, let's say people hit roughly 70% as fast as they used to.

Now 42% effective.

3. 5 min recast. Giant nerf. Let's say your average fight lasts 1.5 min. You can only cast this spell about 33% of the time now.

Now 13% effective.

But...the spell is also resisted a lot. I don't know the exact figures here, but I'll take a potshot guess and say 40% of the times you cast it, you are out another 5 min instead of being able to recast immediately.

Hard to put a number on this one, I'm guessing this is about a 50% effectiveness problem.

Leaving us with...6-7% of its original usefulness.

Which now why I say that, Verant, nerfing one of the most original and useful cleric spells by approximately 95% is an overreaction.

I can understand the reduction of the healing component. But the simultaneous haste fix also affects the nerf. And, most importantly, the latter in combination with the recast time totally destroy Mark of Karn.

If I were to fix the spell, I would simply:

Reduce the healing component to 5 or 6 hp/hit.

And optionally:
Tie the healing component to the damage output of the person hitting the mob, rather than per hit.
(side note: the current fix, as it stands, does nothing to address the dual-wield vs single-wield problem stated in the patch message. Very strange. This solution would.)

Finally, I would like to remind your team of something that you have quoted to us players often.

"Balanced does not mean equal."

The fact that non-dual wielding melee don't heal as fast as dual-wielders is not, in and of itself, a compelling argument to nerf this spell.

If the team thought the spell healed too much, just say so. I thought it might be, and I won't complain about a reasonable nerf. The change to Mark of Karn as it stands now, however, is a gross overcompensation to something that could be dealt with more sensibly.

I sincerely hope that you revisit this particular issue quickly and allow clerics to continue one of their most valued, interesting, and innovative skills in the post-50 game.



[This message has been edited by Heihachi (edited 09-19-2000).]

Correction Post Velious

------------------------------
March 14, 2001 3:00 am
------------------------------

- The spell, Mark of Karn, has been enhanced to heal more per hit.

[Ele]

This patch can be tied to the epics patch. Then again with the changes going back and forth, is it worth the time?

Bump for attention.

Modified again on September 28, 2000

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2000-2.html

- The spell "Mark of Karn" has been changed. The recast-time has been
reduced significantly and the Hitpoint-return is now scaled inversely
based upon the delay of the weapon. In addition, a hitpoint return will
only take place when the target is hit with a primary melee weapon, or
the primary hand if you are unarmed.

[khanable]

Going to bump this. Mark of karn went in the following iterations:

kunark release to 9/19/2000
10hp/hit (mh and oh) ->
9/19/2000 to 9/28/2000
6hp/hit (mh and oh) 5min recast->
9/29/2000 to 3/14/2001
1hp/7 delay of weapon rounded down (MH only) ->
3/14/2001 to whenever it doesn't matter
velious change, 1hp/4 delay (mh only)

Can't believe none of ya'll remember MoKgate from live. Shit was HUGE news and pissed off TONS of clerics. Abashi even have a community "discussion" on it with several options after they nerfed the pissed out of it and wanted to nerf it more.

[khanable]

9/19/2000
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000919.html

After a great deal of consideration, we have concluded that the Mark of Karn spell is imbalanced and requires correction. This spell's current function makes melee classes without dual-wield far less desirable members of the group. As such, the spell has had its duration decreased, its recast-time increased, and its "heal per hit" value decreased.

Changed to 6hp/hit mh & oh with 5min recast

support:

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

5 min recast time
6hp/hit

The 5 min recast is indeed as parsed from spdat. Duration is 210 sec, so ok. About the hp/hit - the parsing wasnt accurate about this pre patch and reports the same now so I cannot say.

But, 5 min recast = (almost) completely useless.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

Complete Stats on the new 'happy' MoK!!!
--------------------------
Mana Required: 125
Spell Duration: 35 ticks (210 seconds)
Duration Formula: 8
Casting Time: 3.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.25 seconds
Recast Delay: 300.0 seconds

At this point, clerics were all FUCK YOU WHAT THE SHITBALLS, so then this happened:

9/20/2000
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

MARK OF KARN TO BE REVIEWED

Gordon responded to the high volume of complaints about yesterday's nerf to the cleric Mark of Karn spell saying that Verant may
have over-reacted.
(inside text)

MARK OF KARN TO BE REVIEWED, SEPTEMBER 20, 2000
Source: Everquest General Discussion Forums.

I just noticed that the last thread on Mark of Karn was closed as it was fast approaching the point at which threads
become unstable, so I thought I'd begin a new one.

In response to the posts thus far, we are going to discuss the issue again on Monday at the tuning meeting. The
general consensus here in the office is that we may have overreacted with the change, and not fully accomplished
our goal. We'll keep you posted come then.

While you're at it, would you be able to clear up this issue with Beldukil?

Heh, I'm not exactly sure where that came from. The people here on the boards do certainly have impact on the
issues we investigate and the decisions that we make, however it's out of place to blame any one decision on
another player.

I think double mana cost, 8hp per hit, 16hp with 2h weapons, no recast time would be a fair solution.

The mana cost really isn't a problem from what I'm seeing, so doubling it wouldn't really accomplish the goal.
What we're trying to address is the fact that rangers, rogues, and monks wielding fast weapons could 'tank' (i.e.
take damage) as well as a paladin when attacking a mob affected by this spell.

- Gordon

9/21/2000
Then abashi was all like this:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

http://boards.station.sony.com/everq...ML/016604.html

He preposes leaving it the same or making it heal 1 hp per 7 delay AND only on the primary weapon. Doing the match you will be VERY LUCKY to get more than a 3hp per mana ratio out of this spell in an ALL melee group. MUCH less in a 2 or 3 melee group. Second option is an utter waste of a spell same as option 1.

Please support us on this. The option to is very misleading. Choose option 3. Delete the spell, since neither option is viable IMO.


Smegal BoneMender

9/26/2000
Furious debate ensued, with verant settling on "option 2", making it 1hp/7 delay MH only
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

See rage threads at bottom of this list:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/sear...&pp=25&page=13

9/28/2000
Patch day!
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000928.html

The spell "Mark of Karn" has been changed. The recast-time has been reduced significantly and the Hitpoint-return is now scaled inversely based upon the delay of the weapon. In addition, a hitpoint return will only take place when the target is hit with a primary melee weapon, or the primary hand if you are unarmed.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

The "new" MoK as Verant posted is 1hp/7 delay on mainhand weapon only, 100m instant recast etc.

It is not the 6hp 200m etc.

Dangrim, 54 Vicar
__________________

A thread from oct 2000 of people mad about MoK:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

dec 2000 also still butthurt:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

dec 2000 outlining what MoK does:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=hate+list

From what I heard a while ago, MoK is cast on a mob. If it sticks, it would overwrite any damage shield the mob had and any melee hit landed on the mob would heal the attacker 10hp. The spell was near instantaneous recast.

When verant killed it, they made it so that only hits with the primary hand would cause and healing effect. The effect is based off the delay of the weapon (mentioned formula was 1hp/7delay of the weapon). It will still overwrite damage shields.

Since a lot of high level tanks prefer fast weapons to get more agro, instead of getting 40hp on a good melee round, a tank is getting 4 or 6hp.... Not real useful when easy mobs hit for 140's. So people mainly seem to use it to overwrite damage shields without dispelling any debuffs on the mob.

jan 2001 "what would you fix about clerics":
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

Fix Mark of Karn. If druids/shamen are to be given our 50+ heal spells, I want this restored to its original value.

abashi responds to people still mad about MoK late jan 2001:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

+ Mark of Karn: We should probably take another look at this spell. I'm not sure that I've seen a suggestion here that I like that much. Though I do kind of like the idea of reversing the way it works, basing the amount healed on blows taken rather than dealt. It helps to avoid some of the problems.

2/21/2001
Claims that MoK had it's resistance checks marked down:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

Castersrealm is reporting MoK has had it's resistances reduced. If Verant calls that a fix then we're in trouble...

To my knowledge 1hp/7delay on weapon rounded down.

Fooled around in Shroom/Reet area with it yesterday, saw no differentce on either tank (main assist and "non tanking" tank) when it came to how much to heal. Druid group regen did alot more then this did.

3/14/2001
Patch to unfuck mark of karn!
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010314.html

The spell, Mark of Karn, has been enhanced to heal more per hit.

thread discussing it:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

Right now it is: 1 pt for every 7 delay (unadjusted) of the main weapon. Offhand weapons don't count.

Actually, we did some testing with this before the enhancement (roughly 3 days ago)

The monk fists at level 60 are 10/24 aren't they? I dunno, but, our monk was getting healed 3 hitpoints per main hand hit, that's roughly 21 delay.

HOWEVER

He has Cloak of Flames and Celestial Fists, that's about 76% haste, making his fists (assuming they're 24) 13 delay. What was weird though, is that he was still getting healed 3 hitpoints per main-hand hit, instead of 1 (since 7 doesn't go into 13 twice).

It's real delay, not hasted delay.

I threw MoK (the spell, not the BP version) on a black bear in EC last night and let him smack me around a bit to get my HPS down from full.

Then I hit the bear with my Yak club (9/24 I think) and was healed for 6 points of health per shot. I didn't get to do this to any degree of real testing, because I got called away to do some rezzing, but that 6 points seemed pretty steady for the few swings I managed to make. I'll do some more testing tonight to confirm these numbers:

Healing = 1 point per 4 delay of weapon (??)

Anyone have any other data?

Daku Inochi
56th Templar

Okay.. here are some more numbers from my testing last night.

Monk with 22 and 29 delay weapons.. was being healed for 4 to 6 points of health per hit. His kick was healing 9 points.

Warrior with 50 delay weapon was being healed for 12 points per hit.

I'm not sure which kick the monk was using (Flying Kick?), but he was about level 38. Can we assume that this kick was doing almost 40 points of damage? Anybody have a monk friend/twink who can add to this data?

So my original suggestion for the formula: MoK Healing = 1 point heal per 4 delay of weapon.

Anyone have any other evidence?

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...hlight=dispell

And the formula WAS 1 hp healed, for every 7 delay of a weapon, rounded down... so if you had a jade mace (9 18) and you hit something with MoK on... you would heal 2 points every time you made contact (regardless of damage).

Two patches ago, they made MoK less resistable... so aparently it's possible to land it now.

THIS current patch... they claim to have increased the effectivness of it (ie: heal more I hope). We won't really know until the servers come up... hopefully its *close* to what it was pre-nerf.

MoK originally used to heal 10 hp/hit for any melee hit.

It was then horribly nerfed to 1hp/7del as explained above and further only healed if the weapon was in the main hand.

Lately it has been a nice way to remove dmgshield - unlike dispell it only removes the dmgshield and not the slow/mez/whatever.

Lets hope they changed it so its now also usefull for healing (ie gets at least 5:1 hp/mana or more regularly).

new thread: http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

I did some testing with MoK and found it to be constantly 1 hp heal per 4 delay on the weapon.

24 delay weapon = 6 point heal
50 delay weapon = 12 point heal
18 delay weapon = 4 point heal
32 delay weapon = 8 point heal
(plus others that I can't remember offhand)

I tested with a full group of high 30's in Eastern Wastes at the Orc fort. I also tested with myself against lowbie skels in EC.

discussion from 8/10/2001:
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn
still useless

It heals very little damage.

Depending on the length of the fight, you might be lucky to heal a couple hundred HP's in a battle.

I like MoK for the most part, and I just have the spell... no BP yet. To begin with, it's one of two/three useful spells cleric's can cast on mez'ed mobs. From my own independant melee studies, MoK gives back 3pt's of health per hit with a 18delay weapon and 7pts with a 37 delay weapon.. which make's it an ok regen for 100mana.

discussion from 11/7/2001
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...ight=mark+karn

After the patch I can now see when I am hitting a mob that has MoK cast on it...However what I noticed is that it does not seem to work with secondary hand hits when duel weilding. I first noticed I wasn't getting the message with every hit, and upon closer inspection I realized that when I crushed(1H Blunt for secondary weapon only) I did not get my 4hp heal. Every hit from my primary hand and kicks worked as expected. The ranger in my group also confirmed the same problem.

Is this a bug, only obvious now due to this patch? (Whether it is not working, or simply the message not displaying I cannot say 100% either way at this point)

Here is a log excerpt showing what I am seeing:

[Wed Nov 07 18:18:02 2001] You try to punch Trooper Syenn, but miss!
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:03 2001] You have been healed for 4 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:03 2001] You punch Trooper Syenn for 29 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:03 2001] You have been healed for 4 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:03 2001] You punch Trooper Syenn for 27 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:04 2001] You try to kick Trooper Syenn, but miss!
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:04 2001] You have been healed for 4 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:04 2001] You punch Trooper Syenn for 32 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:04 2001] You try to punch Trooper Syenn, but miss!
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:05 2001] You try to punch Trooper Syenn, but miss!
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:05 2001] You have been healed for 4 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:05 2001] You punch Trooper Syenn for 20 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:06 2001] You crush Trooper Syenn for 12 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:06 2001] You crush Trooper Syenn for 53 points of damage.
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:06 2001] You try to punch Trooper Syenn, but miss!
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:06 2001] You try to punch Trooper Syenn, but miss!
[Wed Nov 07 18:18:07 2001] You crush Trooper Syenn for 26 points of damage.

bonus: at some point in november you can start seeing MoK healing messages!

MoK is Primary hand only.

Delay:
19- : 3 hps
20 - 24: 4 hps
25 - 29: 5 hps
30 - 39: 6 hps
40+ : 7 hps

Data points:
19 delay = 3 hps
20 delay = 4 hps
21 delay = 4 hps
22 delay = 4 hps
27 delay = 5 hps
32 delay = 6 hps
40 delay = 7 hps

35 delay weapon I got 6 hp healed. Pallies using 2hand weapons were getting 7. Other melee said 4 as stated above.

TL;DR
timeline:
kunark release->9/19/2000: MoK 10hp/hit MH&OF
9/19/2000->9/28/2000: MoK 6hp/hit MH&OF 5min recast
9/28/2000->3/14/2001: MoK 1hp/7delay of weapon (unadjusted) no recast
3/14/2001->onward: MoK 1hp/4 delay of weap (or, 1hp/6 delay, see claims of this as well) (unadjusted) no recast

[Nirgon]

Ele this is incredible forumquest

[Ele]

big ups to Khan

[khanable]

bump, MoK needs to suck ass for verrrrious release

[Raev]

Great classicquest gentlemen

[Daldaen]

Love me some Classholes

[Erati]

it already sucks ass, the spell never lands even after mal/tash

takes 3-4 tries so kinda wasting time here