Game Mechanics: NPC Channeling & Mob Push on P99 is not Classic

[Bellringer]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Uhhh, you realize you are a rando scrub on the internet saying this though, right?

This comment indicates you have no idea how to use the context and locations of information to evaluate possible bias and/or ignorance.

Please refer to the current "4200 max mana" thread for supplemental information regarding using context.

[Rygar]

Seriously, why are you trolling? Your context is you aren't inclined to believe random scrubs on the Internet that complain to make things easier, my point is if you today made a post about some p99 mechanic, and someone read it 20 years later, you would be that same rando scrub.

Just because people posted stuff and wasnt a dev doesn't mean you should dismiss it. Evaluate it, weigh it against other posts, and come to a conclusion.

[Bellringer]

Is "trolling" just the accusation you use when you disagree with someones response? #cleanitup

Anyway, let me clarify. I disagree with the conclusions of your evaluation and comparison to other posts due to the contextual differences in the sources.

As I have previously stated, I agree with much of what you have included in your OP, just not all of it. I am even willing to change this opinion with better information.

The 4200 mana thread is a great example of this, and how context can allow for a much more confident push for facts.

[Rygar]

I think I misunderstood you a bit in your other comment and for that I do apologize and take back the trolling remark, I had read your post as the mana cap thread I posted was ignorant and biased despite going off posted evidence. Pushing for more facts there did indeed lead to better information (cap relative to base mana instead of just an overall hard cap), even if the original +mana item cap number was correct at level 60.

Regardless, re-read some of your posts here and you are coming off abrasive saying I'm trolling others with Daldaen levels of drunken immersion and what have you. Like it or not, when I feel something isn't right or too easy on P99 compared to my recollection I question it and look into it.

I like EverQuest because of its difficulty back in the day, after playing WoW and seeing how they washed it down over the years to make it easier it triggered me into getting back into EQ and finding P99.

Sometimes I get in the habit of saying, "Well gee, I was too stupid back in the day to figure this out! Now that I'm older and smarter I see how I should of done things". Eventually I second guess myself. So no, not trolling, just reviving the nostalgia.

[Rygar]

Found some additional information in terms of special attack push and channelling due to pushing.

Monk Special Attacks:

A warrior can spin a mob. A warrior cannot move a mob. 99 percent of the time, it is, and must be, up to the support melee to keep it in the proper position. The monks especially, since flying kick moves them more than any other melee attack.

Next poster does seem to cast some doubts on this to be fair

Well not sure about that on regular kicks. However Monks do get an Alt-Skill Dragon Punch that procs a small knockback with every successful hit. In the hands of a Monk who is paying attention to what's going on and mob positioning, it's a great tool.

Some more info on that Dragon Punch knockback not being guaranteed to interrupt a caster despite the push it creates...
Dragon Punch ability:

I have the AA Dragon punch.

I originally got it because I thought it an ideal way to stop mob casters. Despite the fact it stops pretty much all PC spells (in test duels), it works maybe 1% of the time on NPCs.

It has 1 use - the knockback allows you to position and push mobs (on raids). For that its pretty nice I suppose.

As a possible 'alternate theory' I was wondering if the mob animations have the potential to move the mob slightly. Such as, a mob does attack animation but then is bashed or kicked or just hit during and it does the 'ugh I been hit' animation. Is there a chance it's position could be changed from that? It doesn't quite jive with some of the data, but maybe contributes somewhat.

[Nirgon]

Pretty damn close to classic here if not spot on

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pretty damn close to classic here if not spot on

Which part, the push value or the mob channeling ability or both?

I tend to disagree obviously, I was trying to find some videos of raids and such even in Luclin to evaluate some of the push, but my youtube searching isn't the most on par.

If anyone had any of those to look over it would be awesome.

[Rygar]

Here are some old videos I previously posted and I took a look at them again.

Trakanon Raid (I believe this is Luclin)

This one is a bit inconclusive as there are people all over the place, but at a few points it looks like there is heavy position on one side. The interesting thing is basically Trak stands in his exact same position the entire fight.

This Maestro Video is a bit more conclusive. It is in first person view but at some point a caster gets agro and entire raid force rushes over to him including pets and are all on one side, he barely moves.

Even when he is against the wall most people aren't pinning him perpendicular but angled and he push is very minimal. Could also reinforce a portion of my animation idea as he looks to move a bit when doing his spell casting and hit animation. If anything from the animation is causing push, it would just be 1 push value per animation, not adding push values from individual attacks.

This Innoruuk video also is a bit inconclusive, but at one point the GFlux pushes everyone to one side and they charge back while Inny is near a wall, they are all melee and facing him for a significant period of time. Even if he is near a wall it should slide him sideways and he barely moves.

So yes, I do disagree that we are no spot on to classic after seeing these. Even if weapons being used are not the fastest as we have and haste values are unknown, the pure volume of melee hits should push more than they are if we are talking P99 push.

[Rygar]

Found a treasure trove of classic videos from a guild known as <Rising Ascension> on Povar server.

They have a ton of videos of raid force kills and push is extremely limited...

Zlandicar - It looks like their strategy is to push him into a wall to pin Zlandicar, look how long it takes their entire raid force to push him up the little cliff, looks to be 30+ people pushing and it is extremely gradual.

Gorenaire - This is pretty laughable... Entire raid pulls him to what looks to be hidden valley, Gore stands still the entire fight. There is no 'PUSH TOWARDS KC!!' Unfortunately this video maker was feared early for a large portion of the fight, but you can see Gore basically stood still. Interestingly, he types 'MEEEP!' when feared, I thought on P99 it disables chat when feared? Perhaps a separate bug report...

Cazic Thule - Again, a fight where a ton of melee engages and he barely moves. You actually do see some push going down but man is it slow compared to P99. You can see a stretch where this video maker is starring at Cazic's foot (not moving the camera) and it is a super slow slide.

They do have a Klandicar vid and some Sleeper's Tomb videos too, but they appeared to wall pin or have some 'even push' on both sides, and Klandicar he remained feared for too long to make an accurate determination.

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NPC Knockback test video - I don't know how accurate this video is, is obviously someone with their own EMU or something, but he is testing push values. Take it for what its worth.

[Jaxon]

The comments have almost no quantitative evidence and are therefore of little value. Videos are a much better source of evidence of push but it can be hard sometimes to draw conclusions from what you see.

I haven't seen anything in the videos you've posted so far that display pushing that would be inconsistent with P99 push. The Trakanon, Maestro, Inny, Cazic, and Gorenaire videos do show gradual push that is about what I would expect with the mobs being surrounded and attacked from all sides. The push on Gore is slower due to her melee slow ability, but it's still there when you see her "teleport" from one spot to the next as she's being attacked. Zlandicar starts off by fearing and stunning the raid, but once the fear wears off and everyone moves back into position you can see Zland get pushed into the wall in seconds by keeping an eye on the rate his wings clip into the back wall.

Here's a clear example of a mob being pushed very quickly by a raid force that coordinates their push in the same direction. This video was taken by the same player who did the Trakanon video you posted, recorded during the Luclin era. Watch Vindi get pushed around like a motherfucker:

https://youtu.be/cpaqYUqel1A?t=43s

In classic raids the players didn't really see a need to push mobs large distances in a coordinated fashion. Classic players did not have years and years to farm items and get max haste and were worse geared on average than current P99 players. The best explanation of why you don't see much mob push in classic videos is some combination of these two reasons: they just weren't trying and they were attacking slower and therefore pushing less.