How much charisma is necessary?

[Arterian]

Just looking for a thought on charisma. Is 200 what we are looking for or is it worth it to go over at the sacrifice of int/hp?

I'm lvl 50 sitting at 229 charisma buffed with 141 int. I have 1600 mana and 1053 hp buffed. I feel like my mana pool is a little small.

What's an enchanter to do?

[Vermicelli]

200 points in any ability score is the point at which you begin to receive diminishing returns, so each investment in the ability score after 200 will give gains that are less and less useful to your actual performance in combat, mana pool, or HP pool. Though it will never be stated on your /lfg resume, it is necessary for a chanter's reputation to get at least 200 CHA if they want to be competitive for a spot in a group. If I have linked it once, I will link it a million times:

Originally Posted by A1551 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok so I grabbed a cleric (thanks Kriven) and charmed goos in COM, and the results were very striking.

First, I found a pet who was just on the cusp of charming viability. At level 52 I grabbed a goo hitting for 116. Prior to this we tried a goo hitting for 120 but even with full charisma gear could not keep it charmed with duration good enough to exp reliably. This choice was intentional, because what I really care about is keeping the best mob I can for as long as I can. I'm sure results would be very different for a light blue mob. On every break the mob was tashed and re-charmed. I just pulled all the data out of my log file after our session and crunched it all using excel. results are as follows:

High Charisma dataset (CHA = 224)
Time of trial: 0:40:18 (or 0.672 hours)
Breaks: 7
Breaks per hour(extrapolated): 10.42
Avg Duration: 5.76 minutes
Median Duration: 3 minutes 10 seconds

Low Charisma dataset (CHA = 95)
Time of trial: 0:58:04 (0.968 hours)
Breaks: 25
Breaks per hour(extrapolated): 25.83
Avg Duration: 2.32 minutes
Median Duration: 1 minute 4 seconds

So conclusion -- charisma has a massive effect on charm duration when charming mobs at the high end of the "viable pet level" spectrum at level 52 in this dataset. In this case, I had almost 2.5 times more breaks per hour (10 to 25) with 95 charisma vs. my normal charisma of 224. This translated into more than doubling my charm durations on average (2.32 minutes with low charisma boosted up to 5.76 minutes with 224 cha). Even with a few caveats discussed below, I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. The cleric I worked with (who didn't specifically know which data set was which) pretty much figured out within three minutes when I had pulled off my charisma gear, and didn't even want to keep going as it was so clear cut. I forced him to deal with my lower charisma for another 55 minutes.

As to the caveats -- first, I have no qualms whatsoever about the one hour duration of the low charisma set. Breaks came so fast and so consistently I am confident to say I could repeat that set a million times and get pretty similar results. However, my high charisma set was probably too short, which is compounded by the much less frequent breaks meaning there's less data to look at. We were working on a very short time window before he had to go. I think the high charisma set durations are fairly accurate overall but I could see the numbers changing there more significantly if the test was repeated. Regardless, it is extremely unlikely they would shift enough to call the conclusion into question.

Second, a few goofs in the experiment. During the low charisma set higher level enchanters came by and twice tash'ed my pet w/ their better tash (they saw how often I was breaking and wanted to help!). This means that for a significant portion of the "low" test my pet actually had lower MR (and assumedly a reduced break chance) vs. my high test. Fortunately this really has no relevance on the conclusions.

Finally, something else I found interesting. Based on each charms individual duration breaks are definitely weighted to the early side of the spectrum. The median duration for both sets was significantly lower vs. the average (Median was 3:10 for high and 1:04 for low). So it is not just our imagination that pets seem to behave forever and then suddenly break repeatedly. Charms tend to break early and often, but once they've lasted a few minutes tend to keep lasting (ie become more stable).

I'd like to repeat this with longer durations, and CHA 200 vs 255 to determine how charisma over 200 helps, but no promises I'll have the motivation I expect the differences will not be nearly as stark, meaning much longer sample times to see a meaningful pattern.

-Propo Fol

As far as bumping your INT, I have always preferred to think about the deep end of my mana pool in this way: If I am doing my job keeping my groupmates hasted, clarity'd, and resistance buffed, and I am keeping one pet mob charmed, all the enemy mobs slowed, adds mezzed, and possibly dropping Pacify at times, I will likely NEVER be able to regenerate to my full mana capacity. The only point at which a large MP capacity matters is when you begin breaking a camp, when you need to drop a bunch of mana in a short amount of time, though hopefully with enough buff preparation time and with a smart puller, you will never need to dump enough to exceed an uncomfortable amount of your mana bar for a camp break.

To be sure, whenever you can slip in some +HP equipment, that will help if something goes awry, especially through earlier character levels. However, +CHA and practicing good methods are WAY dang more important to ensure that nothing messes up in the first place. Look forward to Velious gear though! That junk is going to give every class gear to make it hecka easier to reach the soft cap for the most important ability scores.

[Teneran]

Anecdotally I've also noticed that charm breaks either tend to happen early, in a streaky manner or last a long time. The only time I consistently get a very long charm or a lot of shorter breaks is based on level. I forget the exact number but my buffed CHA is in the low 200s right now.

I'm curious how much, if any, CHA affects mez or lull.

[Qtip]

If Im in group or solo I always have max cha. Now that Im 55, Im trying to replace items with higher cha and then replacing the old slots with +hp/mana items.

With tot, troll illusion and runes I can pretty much none stop kill stuff. I never haste pet, just equip him with a torch. Depending on how many mobs, I will use slow. If you have 2 mobs, both around the same lvl, same dps. I willnt even bother using slow.

I have noticed through trial and error, its hard to go by other peoples advice. It takes a couple tries with each camp/zone to you find your own niche. But I will have to say, enchanter is by far one of the funniest classes to play in eq.

[Vermicelli]

Originally Posted by Teneran [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only time I consistently get a very long charm or a lot of shorter breaks is based on level.

I'm curious how much, if any, CHA affects mez or lull.

First, please understand that charming has two parts. There is the initial cast of the spell, and then there is a "check" that "ticks" every 6 seconds or so. The following ideas apply to both the initial check and the following ticks equally, to my understanding. I have read that the three factors that affect one particular instance of charm are as follows, in order of importance. "Numero uno" is level discrepancy between the caster and the mob. If you are higher level than the NPC, charm will last way longer, and it is a safe bet to target light blues. If you are feeling saucy, you can grab a blue that you can eventually, through combat, confirm is hitting for damage in a range that is low relative to your level ("low" being 116 or so damage when are you are L55, relatively speaking. So it can still be quite high damage for a "low" figure!). Brell forgive me, but I forget what the mathematical formula is to figure out a mob's level through their damage, and I am too lazy to find it, though there is such a math equation. "Two" is the Magic Resistance of the mob in question. ALWAYS make sure you cast your highest level of Tashan on the critter before you charm them, if you have the time. If you don't have the time, make the time through your color stuns and L4 mez. For your pets, sometimes it can be worth it to ask a Mage or Shaman in your group to cast Malosi on your pet when charm breaks to further lower their Magic Resist. Tash gets you aggro, so dun cast it for Lull. "Number three" is straight up your Charisma score. Keep that Adorning Grace up! Each of these factors (level difference, mob Magic Resist, and your CHA score) will be checked at each charm tick, so keep yer mess together!

For what it is worth, druids charming animals and necromancers charming the undead only get checks on their character level versus the mob level to determine if the charm will break.

Higher CHA affects the initial cast of mesmerize. After the initial cast, mez will last the entire duration of the spell if it sticks on a mob. Each level of mez has an assigned duration, and generally each successive level of mesmerize lasts longer than the previous. However, L49 Dazzle typically will last longer than L53 Boltran's BS. Confirmed by myself and by guildies. From what I have read, the spell has a lower chance of being resisted, but it does not last as long as Dazzle. Dun bother with Boltran. He was a dumb enchanter. Well-meaning, but I don't think he ever got invited to any raids.

From what I have read, extra Charisma will reduce the chance that your Lull gets resisted, and further it will affect whether or not the spell gets resisted in such a way that you get aggro from the resist. I don't know of anyone who has logged a reference-able test of this. I have high CHA, and my Lulls in Howling Stones at character L56 are rarely resisted, if that helps ya.

[Vermicelli]

Yo one thing that will super duper help you at character level 51 and onward is the Theft of Thought spell. Obtain it. It is the Enchanter mana leeching spell, and necros can chew on that jealousy longingly. No need to strip to your bones and bleed HP! If you find yourself in Karnor's Castle, it is useful to charm the floating ghosty Iksar and Sarnak casters so you can suck their mana on a charm break. Be certain to take note of which mobs are casters in any area, and drop Theft of Thought on ANY mob that has mana just before it croaks. Never sit to med again, my friend. Unless you need more mana. Don't blame me if you don't med.

[Vellaen]

Originally Posted by Vermicelli [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Higher CHA affects the initial cast of mesmerize. After the initial cast, mez will last the entire duration of the spell if it sticks on a mob. Each level of mez has an assigned duration, and generally each successive level of mesmerize lasts longer than the previous. However, L49 Dazzle typically will last longer than L53 Boltran's BS. Confirmed by myself and by guildies. From what I have read, the spell has a lower chance of being resisted, but it does not last as long as Dazzle. Dun bother with Boltran. He was a dumb enchanter. Well-meaning, but I don't think he ever got invited to any raids.

A note about Glamour of Kintaz (that's the level 54 mez - Boltran's Agacerie is the level 53 charm upgrade to Allure): it's only slightly less resistible, if at all, but it can mez higher-level mobs than the lower-level mesmerize spells, and that's where it comes in handy. It doesn't last very long, but it's the only thing you have that will mez a sebilite juggernaut until Rapture at 59.

Originally Posted by Vermicelli [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From what I have read, extra Charisma will reduce the chance that your Lull gets resisted, and further it will affect whether or not the spell gets resisted in such a way that you get aggro from the resist. I don't know of anyone who has logged a reference-able test of this. I have high CHA, and my Lulls in Howling Stones at character L56 are rarely resisted, if that helps ya.

Pretty much, yeah. Straight resists on lulls are purely level/MR-based. Critical resists (the ones that aggro the target) are a second CHA-based roll taken if the mob passes the MR check. It's night and day going from a 250 CHA enchanter to a 110 CHA cleric when trying to lull. About 5% of my enchanter's lull resists are critical. With the cleric, it's closer to 20%.