Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Toxigen]

500 pages before 2024 lets go

[Toxigen]

the obv answer is enc / enc / enc / cleric, but the more interesting one is if you can only have 1 of each class for a 4 man

enc / cleric are given, what do you fill in the rest with? mage is prob one of them

[Troxx]

That’s easy imo and was suggested on page 1 I think

Cleric ench mage necro

This setup brings everything other than ports. Potential for 2 charms. If not fighting around undead 2 backup tanks. You have FD, snare backup heals, emergency rez. All pets have haste mask. You have both tash and malo.

Legit powerhouse team

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the obv answer is enc / enc / enc / cleric, but the more interesting one is if you can only have 1 of each class for a 4 man

enc / cleric are given, what do you fill in the rest with? mage is prob one of them

As I said on page one, Cleric/Enchanter/Shaman/Necromancer. It's the Monk/Shaman/Enchanter power trio with a Cleric stapled on. You'll be able to do more camps with this group. The Mage doesn't bring much at level 60 when you're farming named mobs. Any four man group is already going to XP really fast, so it's not really necessary to bring the Mage for a bit faster leveling.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That’s easy imo and was suggested on page 1 I think

Cleric ench mage necro

This setup brings everything other than ports. Potential for 2 charms. If not fighting around undead 2 backup tanks. You have FD, snare backup heals, emergency rez. All pets have haste mask. You have both tash and malo.

Legit powerhouse team

Yea this was my original suggestion. I think cleric/enc/enc/wiz is more lucrative overall, but repeating classes are lame and cleric/enc/mage/necro would just be a blast. Swapping in a shaman for the mage just adds so much unneeded utility. 3 healers/4 rooters is extreme overkill. Necro heals can easily back up cleric. 100% sure shaman just clicks jbb in this group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yea this was my original suggestion. I think cleric/enc/enc/wiz is more lucrative overall, but repeating classes are lame and cleric/enc/mage/necro would just be a blast. Swapping in a shaman for the mage just adds so much unneeded utility. 3 healers/4 rooters is extreme overkill. Necro heals can easily back up cleric. 100% sure shaman just clicks jbb in this group.

There are a lot of things the Shaman will be doing besides casting JBB:

1. Healing + Regenerating the Necro so they can use their best lich spell. This frees up the Cleric to not have to worry about that. Also saves the Cleric mana to do stuns, nukes, etc. if needed.

2. The Shaman is slowing instead of the Enchanter. This saves the Enchanter mana, and also frees up a spell slot, which is premium for an Enchanter. This allows the Enchanter to focus on controlling their pets and CCing mobs. Having 2 slowers also means that you can both slow if you are fighting a mob with high Magic Resistance. Better chance of landing the initial slow.

3. Applying DoTs and Pet damage as necessary if the group wants extra DPS.

4. Maloing the mob so spells land easier. Shaman Malo is better than Mage Malo.

5. Rooting monsters as needed, which can also free up a spell slot for the Cleric, Enchanter and/or the Necromancer.

6. Tanking mobs instead of the Enchanter pet. This allows the Enchanter pet to do more damage since it can be behind the mob. It can even backstab if it has the capability. Shamans are much tankier than Mage pets when they have Torpor. Having a player tank instead of a pet is also easier to control, as mobs prefer to attack players over pets. It's also easier for a player to reposition as necessary while tanking.

7. The Cleric and Necromancer can heal the Shaman as needed if their mana pools are full. This allows the Shaman to continue rooting, slowing, casting DoTs, etc. A Shaman's ability to cannibalize pairs well with other healing classes. This can reduce group downtime because you are sharing resources better.

8. Buffing the group and the pet. The pet will do more damage with STR buffs and Avatar. Players will be more likely to survive with FoS, STA, and Aegolism.

The Shaman offers a lot more than a Mage. Utility is generally better than DPS in small groups, because it's easier to wipe when you have less people. That is why Enchanter/Cleric is a strong duo. They have a ton of utility for survival, while also happening to have good DPS with the Enchanter pet. You are already leveling quickly with a 4 man group, so you don't really need a Mage's DPS while leveling. At 60 when you are killing named mobs the DPS isn't necessary either. The player leveling a Shaman will get a lot more out of having a 60 Torpor Shaman than a 60 Mage as well. The Mage gets the worst level 60 character in this group after it inevitably breaks up.

[Troxx]

Rules for this discussion were simple:

-group must have 4 players (no more, no less)
-all players must be casters
-debate the best setup

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are a lot of things the Shaman will be doing besides casting JBB

Not likely ... unless that other thing is chain-casting your best actual DD nuke.

1. Healing + Regenerating the Necro so they can use their best lich spell. This frees up the Cleric to not have to worry about that. Also saves the Cleric mana to do stuns, nukes, etc. if needed.

The necro can heal itself just fine. Have you ever played a necro? I can't count how many times I was in groups all the way up to 60 where I had no regen and needed no heals from any outside party. Necros can self heal themselves so well that they can donate EXTRA health to others while also covering their lich.

Ever played a necro? Regen is nice but those that have played one (and played one well) know that it isn't needed.

2. The Shaman is slowing instead of the Enchanter. This saves the Enchanter mana, and also frees up a spell slot, which is premium for an Enchanter. This allows the Enchanter to focus on controlling their pets and CCing mobs. Having 2 slowers also means that you can both slow if you are fighting a mob with high Magic Resistance. Better chance of landing the initial slow.

Enchanter has slow. Having said that, with charm pet + necro pet (summon or charm) + mage pet (summon) mobs are going to die fast enough you might as well not bother slowing at all. For the truly hard encounters that need it - enchanter has that covered.

Heck, the enchanter will likely have their pet equipped with a Swarmcaller (50% slow proc) just for the fun of it.

3. Applying DoTs and Pet damage as necessary if the group wants extra DPS.

Mobs are going to die somewhere between your 2nd cast dot never actually landing or maybe 1-2 ticks in. Applying dots in a high dps group is not smart or efficient. You'd be better off nuking. As we have established, shaman pet is poor dps - a weak dot at best. It doesn't quad and is much lower summon level than other pets in question.

4. Maloing the mob so spells land easier. Shaman Malo is better than Mage Malo.

Mage can malo also. Mage and shaman Malosini is identical. Mage unresistable mala is -35 ... shaman unresistable is -45.

No big difference.

5. Rooting monsters as needed, which can also free up a spell slot for the Cleric, Enchanter and/or the Necromancer.

Cleric has 3 minute paralyzing earth root. Necro has 3 minute paralyzing earth root. Enchanter has root. Enchanter also has ... mez!

You think an all caster group really needs 4 F'n roots?

6. Tanking mobs instead of the Enchanter pet. This allows the Enchanter pet to do more damage since it can be behind the mob. It can even backstab if it has the capability. Shamans are much tankier than Mage pets when they have Torpor. Having a player tank instead of a pet is also easier to control, as mobs prefer to attack players over pets. It's also easier for a player to reposition as necessary while tanking.

Why on gods green earth do you think anybody would want to tank the mob as a shaman? The necro pet, mage pet, and enchanter pet will do a lot better job than you would.

Cleric healing power is so ... overpowered ... in this context that they'll spend most of their time not casting heals at all. It's basically lobbing a complete heal on the massive HP pet once in a blue moon and saving mana reserves for that oh-shit moment when the charm breaks. If the enchanter is any good at all, they won't be taking much damage anyways on breaks. And when charm does break, you have 2 beefy summon pets on the mob that honestly tank better than most tank player characters out there.

7. The Cleric and Necromancer can heal the Shaman as needed if their mana pools are full. This allows the Shaman to continue rooting, slowing, casting DoTs, etc. A Shaman's ability to cannibalize pairs well with other healing classes. This can reduce group downtime because you are sharing resources better.

So the cleric and necromancer can heal the shaman so the shaman can canni harder, not torpor, and still not do good dps? Why would they want to bother. They can both heal themselves and heal others just fine without you.

8. Buffing the group and the pet. The pet will do more damage with STR buffs and Avatar. Players will be more likely to survive with FoS, STA, and Aegolism.

This is actually a true statement. It is the one thing shamans actually do provide value with. The question is whether or not it's even worth the otherwise dead-weight 4th character. My vote is nah ... especially if you're giving up haste masks.

Focus doesn't add 405hp to the casters in this group. They each have their own shielding line which doesn't stack with focus. Focus is better - but these casters aren't giving up much by not having this line of buffs available. Even clerics have a self buff for this.

Stamina? Stamina returns on casters are not good.

Beyond that, there's a whole 59 levels before shamans can cast Focus or Avatar ... and unless you're an end-game raid character the shaman is not going to have a reagent free Avatar to cast.

Thats 26pp every 6 minutes.

The player leveling a Shaman will get a lot more out of having a 60 Torpor Shaman than a 60 Mage as well. The Mage gets the worst level 60 character in this group after it inevitably breaks up.

Totally beyond the scope of this "for fun" exercise in theorycrafting. For the purpose of this thread you have 4 people, all playing casters, all playing together and without any outside help and only able to tackle what a 4 person group of all casters can.

So lets break this down again.

Shaman brings to the table:
-heals (not needed)
-root (you've already got 3 who can cast it)
-slows (redundant and mostly not needed to begin with)
-buffs: helpful no doubt, but not necessary.
-low dps from the shaman
-low-tier dps from pet
-pet that will off-tank or emergency tank worse than a ranger
-the same malosini as mage
-a marginally better unresistable malo at level 60

Mage brings to the table:
-Quality dps at baseline from pet
-pet that will off-tank or emergency tank better than most actual player tanks
-steady state nuke dps
-Actual dps burn potential when the situation calls for it
-Dmg shield (the best in the game) quietly in the background adding even more dps
-COTH
-Mod rods
-Pet haste masks
-the same malosini as shaman
-a marginally worse unresistable 'malo' at level 60

If all classes had to be different classes and you really didn't want to bring a mage, the group would be far better off with a wizard or druid than a shaman. At least then you'd have ports and utility. If the group already has a cleric and enchanter ... does this mean that adding a shaman is literally the worst option of all the casters available? Certainly smells that way.

So sorry you lost this argument DSM. You lost it about 449 pages ago.

[Jimjam]

Slowing mobs and losing mage DS is a big -dps.

[Vivitron]

I'd probably prefer the shaman with the cleric/ench/necro but it's close enough to be whatever. For the shaman, a second slower is a real benefit often enough, regen on the necro is legit nice till they get some high end gear, and an extra snap heal isn't bad on an ugly charm break. For the mage, single target damage and COTH are both nice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The necro can heal itself just fine. Have you ever played a necro? I can't count how many times I was in groups all the way up to 60 where I had no regen and needed no heals from any outside party. Necros can self heal themselves so well that they can donate EXTRA health to others while also covering their lich.

Ever played a necro? Regen is nice but those that have played one (and played one well) know that it isn't needed.

Saving HP and Mana on the Necro means they can do more things. It's really a simple concept, I don't see why you are trying to deny this basic fact.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanter has slow. Having said that, with charm pet + necro pet (summon or charm) + mage pet (summon) mobs are going to die fast enough you might as well not bother slowing at all. For the truly hard encounters that need it - enchanter has that covered.

Heck, the enchanter will likely have their pet equipped with a Swarmcaller (50% slow proc) just for the fun of it.

Saving Mana and a spell slot on the Enchanter means they can do more things. It's really a simple concept, I don't see why you are trying to deny this basic fact. If the Enchanter isn't casting Slow, they can be casting something else simultaneously with the Shaman. Plus you get 2x Slowers for high magic resist mobs.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mobs are going to die somewhere between your 2nd cast dot never actually landing or maybe 1-2 ticks in. Applying dots in a high dps group is not smart or efficient. You'd be better off nuking. As we have established, shaman pet is poor dps - a weak dot at best. It doesn't quad and is much lower summon level than other pets in question.

Mage can malo also. Mage and shaman Malosini is identical. Mage unresistable mala is -35 ... shaman unresistable is -45.

No big difference.

As you keep forgetting, you can root rot mobs in a group for faster killing. And yes, you can nuke as well if you want. A Mage who nukes is going to be meditating more often. This averages out their DPS over time to whatever their limit on mana is. A shaman's ability to cannibalize allows them more flexibility when the group is considering the best use of their resources. A Shaman's malo is still better. It's not a large gap I agree, but it's better.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Cleric has 3 minute paralyzing earth root. Necro has 3 minute paralyzing earth root. Enchanter has root. Enchanter also has ... mez!

You think an all caster group really needs 4 F'n roots?

Having more people with root means that each caster's spell bar can be more flexible. Don't need 4 roots? Take root off the Shaman's bar so they can cast another DoT. Or take root off the Cleric's bar for another Stun, etc. That is one benefit of overlapping spells, you get to optimize spell slots better across the group.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why on gods green earth do you think anybody would want to tank the mob as a shaman? The necro pet, mage pet, and enchanter pet will do a lot better job than you would.

Clearly you haven't played a Torpor Shaman. They are one of the best tanks without discs in the game. That is why they can solo so well with Torpor + Slow. You don't solo things like 6+ WW Dragons without being a great tank. A Player is much easier to control than a pet when tanking too. This frees up the pet classes to focus on other things. When the pets are behind the mob, they do more damage and can backstab. This is really basic stuff. Claiming a Necro/Mage pet can tank better than a Shaman is a really silly thing to say. I don't see Mage/Necro pets solo tanking 6+ WW Dragons.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rules for this discussion were simple:
Totally beyond the scope of this "for fun" exercise in theorycrafting. For the purpose of this thread you have 4 people, all playing casters, all playing together and without any outside help and only able to tackle what a 4 person group of all casters can.

You don't get to unilaterally decide this just because it helps your argument lol. There was no such restriction from OP. Please stop doing this, it just makes you look desperate.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Cleric healing power is so ... overpowered ... in this context that they'll spend most of their time not casting heals at all. It's basically lobbing a complete heal on the massive HP pet once in a blue moon and saving mana reserves for that oh-shit moment when the charm breaks. If the enchanter is any good at all, they won't be taking much damage anyways on breaks. And when charm does break, you have 2 beefy summon pets on the mob that honestly tank better than most tank player characters out there.

So the cleric and necromancer can heal the shaman so the shaman can canni harder, not torpor, and still not do good dps? Why would they want to bother. They can both heal themselves and heal others just fine without you.

If your cleric/Necro is at FM all the time, they can channel their mana into the Shaman for more spells like DoTs, slows, roots, buffs, etc. This is because the Shaman can cannibalize the HP from the heals. You can't do that with a Mage. You get way more flexibility of resource management with a Shaman, which reduces downtime of the group and increases your power.

Mage is generally just offering DPS, malo, and CoTH for a select few occasions. Plenty of people have CoTH bots, so if you just need CoTH use one of your party member's CoTH bots. There was never a restriction in this thread about no bot characters, and OP himself said it was fine. A 4 man group is killing mobs fast enough as it is, you don't need the Mage while leveling. And at level 60 a Mage's DPS is even less necessary.

It is very easy to rebut all of your arguments. It really seems like you haven't done much grouping with Shamans, or don't understand the game mechanics very well.

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd probably prefer the shaman with the cleric/ench/necro but it's close enough to be whatever. For the shaman, a second slower is a real benefit often enough, regen on the necro is legit nice till they get some high end gear, and an extra snap heal isn't bad on an ugly charm break. For the mage, single target damage and COTH are both nice.

Agreed.