Game Mechanics: Rogue hide

[Shiftin]

To pile on, sneak/hide at 60 is still a significant snare. It should be a full speed run or damn near it according to Kendricks posts, and it basically cancels out jboots in its current implementation.

[SamwiseRed]

60 run/hide isnt full run speed?

[Shiftin]

ha, no. i actually ask for invis in VP sometimes for quick moves because it's no worse than my hide, and with sneak/hide on a long run like from zone in to pool room, i can be a good 15-20 seconds behind the raid by the time we get up there.

[4WOFURY]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To pile on, sneak/hide at 60 is still a significant snare. It should be a full speed run or damn near it according to Kendricks posts, and it basically cancels out jboots in its current implementation.

I Also mentioned this in my original post -

Also, I have not yet reached level 60, though in talking to some other rogues I see that the snare effect of sneak is still somewhat noticable even at that level. My remembrance of classic was that the snare was removed, and you could run freely even while sneaking. Again, this was written during PoP era, but it specifically mentions level 60:

[Supaskillz]

Browsed some zam forum discussion. Posted lots of stuff below Reading through these I have very little faith in the accounts most of these players give lol. Basically alot of bad and conflicting information. But here is what I found none the less.

http://web.archive.org/web/200109030...ass=2&start=75

pretty weak evidence for current state. Given how he describes sneak I dont think he is being precise in his analogy to invis.

Sneak and Hide:
This really really is one of the greatest abilities in the game and unique to the rogue class.

Hide alone is (in the rogue case) a invisibility and invisibility versus undead at the same time.
This is extreamly valuable and makes rogues the only class that can be invis to living and undead beings at the same time.

Sneak when used alone significantly reduces your aggro radius and works as a invis if you are behind a creature.

On top of that rogues can sneak and hide at the same time, granting you the benefits of both skills at once.

This guy suggests there are mobs in Befallen that can see through hide, but maybe just dumb.

Rogues By: Anonymous
Posted @ Thu, Aug 2nd 12:30 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
I have a rogue on the Cazic-Thule server. Right now he is level 14. His name is Quinby. He is a gnome rogue. In my opinion I think that rogues are a GREAT class. I have played lots of other classes until at least level 20 to see if I liked them, but the rogue is the only class that I have liked since level 10. The can pickpocket, great skill, used for upping your funds, they can backstab, a huge amount of damaged every 6 seconds, the can HIDE/SNEAK, which is great for scouting and PICKLOCKING doors. By the way, if you want to raise picklock, just go to Befallen, in West Commons, and do your little HIDE/SNEAK and go down the stairs, stay near the right wall, BUT, stay about 10 feet away from it...go to the second door on the right and PICKLOCK away! Remember to stay away from the door, just get within PICKLOCKING distance from it. There are a couple mobs on the other side of the door that can see through HIDE/SNEAK. Hope this helped. -Quinby-

Guy implies having see invis allows mob to see hide.

The rogue has been much more interesting for me. First, as a half elf rogue in banded armor I look cool. When I get my Ravenscale armor or Blackened Alloy armor I will look even more cool. Special weapon procs and poisons give a great variety of options for dealing with MOBS. Its not just beating on the thing for all you can as fast as you can. With poisons and weapon procs you can slow, root, weaken, or do DD. Your choice. Using sneak+hide (what I call stealth mode) allows me to travel nearly anywhere without risk (unless the MOB can see invis).

says bats in guk see hide

RE: Masks of Changin` By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, May 29th 4:46 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
The only one I have personal experience with is the mask of deception found on the Ghoul Assassin in Lower Guk. I was just in there at level 30 and he was big time red to me. the nice thing about the mask is it is rogue/bard only and is no drop. It is a common drop too. I just sneaked and hid all the way in. A very long dungeon to sneak hide through and you better have real good swimming skill or enduring breath to get there because there is some serious swimming. You will be invis to everything in their except the vampire bats who killed me on the way out of the dungeon. This mask gives you illusion of Dark Elf and can not be triggered till you are at least level 15. Good luck.

more evidence of the bats

one word of caution tho in my recent attempts to get one myself (two tries) i discovered the hard way that you apparantly need to have sow in order to get out of the water where you need to if you are sneaking which you probably would be.. and also aparantly the vampire bats can see thru hide/sneak, i only saw one on two trips (well one and a half actually) and it didn't attack me but when i conned it it said ready to attack and it was red at 17, plus if it hit me my hide woulda dropped and all the undead frogs woulda attacked too so i wasn't chancing it.

Can you elaborate a little for us please!

Sneaky Hide By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, May 8th 8:27 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
What exactly sees through sneak and hide? Is it simply anything that sees through invisi?

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RE: Sneaky Hide By: Anonymous
Posted @ Thu, May 10th 2:46 AM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Its not really that simple. Some things that see through invis will not see through sneak hide. Some mobs can see you if you are in front of them, but not if you are sneaking right behind them. My advice is simply con everything...even when sneak hiding...it will save your life.

Ledinea Ravensoul
50 rogue

This is interesting. don't know anything about usenet to find these posts on wayback

Posted @ Thu, May 10th 4:18 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
There's also a documented random factor in hide/sneak where mobs will sometimes attack you even if you are hidden (con indifferent) to them. No one has ever been able to pin Verant down as to whether this is a 'feature' or a bug. There were a number of posts about this on usenet 1.5 years ago or so.

<Narsse, retired Karana rogue>

you heard it here folks. too powerful

Balarman By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, Feb 13th 10:03 AM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Sneak/Hide Can anyone tell me where i can learn about sneak/hide? I don't quite understand how sneak works and i guess i don't have enough experience to use hide (it keeps telling me i'm trying but rarely happens). Would appreciate some specifics. Love this little character!

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RE: Balarman By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, Feb 13th 6:23 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Sneak and Hide are both Rogue skills, accessed and used like any other skill. Sneak, when successful will yield a message saying: You are as quiet as a cat stalking it's prey. This will drop your speed to 1/2 the norm, but it will allow you to move around with Hide up. This counts as an invis, and an invis vs. Undead. Pretty neat, useful skill, if you ask me. You can counter the speed deficiency by getting a SOW (Spirit of Wolf [spell], speed boost) from a generous player. Good hunting!!

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RE: Balarman By: Anonymous
Posted @ Mon, Feb 19th 3:00 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Dear Anonymous

thanks for the excellent explantion of sneak/hide. Am more familiar w/ it now but ur message put me over the top. Can't wait to try it...thanks so much

Balarman

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RE: Balarman By: Pilapeu, Sage
166 posts
Posted @ Fri, Feb 16th 7:08 PM 2001 Score: Good[3.87]
It's invis vs undead too!?! no way, thats like way tooo powerfull. But I like it

/em throws his head back and cackles with insane glee

Pilapeu Wewingtonheet
SilentFist Clan
Seventh Hammer Server

It sounds like he is saying you can hide/sneak past the see invis wizards

LEVELS 34-41: Clockworks in Sol. A
By now you will need to have met a friend you is a healer. Grab them and head to Soluek A.

If your friend can invisible, getting to the clocks should be too much of a problem. Watch out for Wizards as they can see invisible. You can always hide/sneak past them, but you friend needs to use more conventional means. There is a zone to Sol B. near the Clocks, so if you get into trouble, you can make a quick escape. Don't go exploring Sol. B. Most of the stuff can't see you, but some can and if it aggros on you, your screwed.

lynada in sol A can see according to this

fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Fri, Nov 24th 2:56 AM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
sorry. hit enter too soon. ANYways... rogues are really fun. i just love sneaking/hiding around especially when ppl say things like "what's a lvl 3 doing in mistmoore?" adds up to a lot of possible exploring early on and some insane loot. either way, its fun. just make sure you rehide after you loot something even if you still think your hiding.

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Sat, Dec 9th 12:23 AM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
been there done that. i dont know, maybe someone's seen me around. Anyways, the boy is right and it is great fun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] NOTHING can see a hidden rogue

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Mon, Dec 11th 6:45 PM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
sorry to burst your bubble but there are a few high lvl creatures both living and undead that can see through a rogues hide... if ya dont believe me go wander around kithicor forest after dark

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Wed, Dec 13th 8:31 PM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
There are also places with a lot of mobs that see our invis such as lower guk and some places that are underwater.

Arrtemis Entreri,Torvonnilous.

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Wed, Dec 13th 8:25 PM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
Or guk,mistmoore and places with skeletal undead.

Arrtemis Entreri,Torvonnilous.

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Wed, Dec 20th 9:59 PM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
first, what saw you in mm? i have been to jus bout every mob in there while hidin an nuthin aggroed. as for nuthin seein us while hidin, yer a tad wrong on that info. one of the places visited by most 'true rogues' (imo, at least) is lynada the exiled in sol a. try sneakin in there an see which of the gobs aggros you first ). got aggrod twice while checkin her out. the second time a 50+ shammy killed her an i looted the purse jus before i died (.

[Supaskillz]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2869

This is interesting, it sounds as though in 2001 you could infact do the stuff that got nerfed here, that is pull with sneak hit hide and run past mobs without social aggro.

I wish the comments were archived from this post.

[Scrubosaur]

From the research I have done it sounds like sneak/hide was a lot more complex than just invis/itu or invis to everything except X mobs. It looks like there was also a level check involved when determining which mobs could see you. This would explain why low level people sneaking through lower guk for a mask would be seen by mobs that aren't said to be able to see through hide/sneak.

As for myself, I have run into the random see through hide/sneak while in Unrest. On two different spawns a dry bones skeleton saw me while I was in sneak/hide. I checked my logs and prior to getting hit I did not see a notice that hide or sneak had dropped. I also verified that it was a successful hide and sneak. The only thing that could have happened was I did have a message "you can not loot this corpse at this time." from using mouse look to move around. There was no drop of hide/sneak message but it is possible that it triggered it to make me seen even though I was still moving slow and appeared invisible.

[Cecily]

I never trusted spell invis on live because it sucked. My computer sucked too. So to get through DL, I'd hide / sneak and stare at the ground while mashing my loc key to find KC. This was perfectly safe. It's not on P99.

The point of Shroud of Stealth wasn't to make you invis to see invis, it was to make you invis to the annoying handful of mobs that made your life suck by being able to see rogues. Like gods and other nuisances. I'm positive the old version was mostly right. Some mobs might have been off, but rogues are crippled on P99.

Something I would like looked at is Invis + IVU spells stacking. I never saw that on live and I'm really dubious as to that being a real mechanic.

[Pezy]

I know for a fact that IVU and Invis stacked, at the very least during Velious and throughout PoP. I also know for the fact that Rogue hide was far superior to IVU + Invis all through classic, and is actually inferior here.

The evidence posted in these threads clearly shows that what we have now is wrong, and has almost entirely destroyed one of the core aspects of the Rogue class. I really hope this gets looked at and remedied sooner rather than later.

[Velerin]

I distinctly remember doing CRs in Sol B on my rogue. Kobolds (see normal invis) did not see hide, where bats did see hide. Also in Guk, you could make it all the way to the assassin to wait on a mask as long as were lucky to not get seen by the bats near bedroom. Apparently Verant decided bats were rogue's arch enemy, but many "see invis" mobs did not see rogue hide.