#1
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NPC Channeling & Mob Push on P99 is not Classic
The Inception:
One of the first things I noticed when I came to P99 is how easy it was to interrupt NPC spell casters, especially at the higher levels, with just melee attacks. One of my most comical Kedge Keep memories on Live was going to kill Phinny with a group of guildies and we couldn’t kill the seahorses that completely healed (They were either magic immune or very heavy resists, no stuns would land). We had no large races or bashers in the group, so we had a problem. I was a human warrior, but luckily kept a shield in my bag for emergencies, everyone laughed at how our warrior needed to bust out a shield to interrupt the mobs. Did we just not know about ‘mob push’? Or maybe, just maybe, was that dynamic different on live than P99..? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The Hypothesis: I will present evidence to back this up, but here is what I think is wrong on P99:
Here is how I think it should work after combing through a ton of posts:
Now, I’m aware that in our server era mobs should be casting lower level spells (no ice comet and such) and should be having extremely deep mana pools. Perhaps you chose to implement push as it is on P99 to compensate for the out of era fix to have NPCs be smarter about choosing which spells to load. I saw some other thread where Haynar was measuring some push values on either Live or another EQEmu and implemented here. Regardless, I still believe the NPC channeling needs a hard look as it appears to not be working properly as it did on Live. The Evidence: Keep in mind this is not a complete list, there is also a lot of contradicting information out there of people saying mob push works others saying it doesn’t or others saying it only had a chance of it working. After combing through it I believe the above Hypothesis is close to how it should be. In any event, it has been stated before that in light of contradicting evidence you would err towards the side of underpowered rather than overpowered. Buckle up for a long read folks, here we go. I’ve tried as best I could to cut out irrelevant parts of the conversations: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!ms...c/EsJlPXwMAyUJ (Posted: 06/11/2002) thread titled: Thank God. (Caster Mob Changes) Quote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!se...E/TqpgppWvazEJ (Posted: 2/23/2000) thread titled 'FIX THESE BUGS FIRST PLEASE !!!' Quote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!se...4/ePHWsZGl_2sJ (Posted: 01/19/2000) Thread titled: Bards: Cause and more cause [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Quote:
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https://groups.google.com/forum/#!se...c/EsJlPXwMAyUJ (Posted: 10/30/1999) thread titled 'Monks need to be able to interrupt casters' Quote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!ms...8/stLpYuyDbhkJ (Posted: 09/22/2001) Thread titled: Whoa holy cow, melee test changes Quote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!se...Q/QpPPzC_iLQwJ (Posted: 06/07/2002) thread title 'NPC Casters' Quote:
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https://groups.google.com/forum/#!ms...o/rq5D3e-E94EJ (Posted: 01/18/2003) Thread titled: Interrupting Casters, Was Beginning to see why Bards Rock. Quote:
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https://groups.google.com/forum/#!ms...g/JGRVhYOMO8cJ (Posted: 01/25/2004) Thread titled: gating mobs Conversation revolves around how to interrupt mobs that gate, as well as stun immune mobs like giants: Quote:
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Also mentions he ‘Dragon Punch’ AA didn’t seem to matter on how far you pushed the mob, on P99 if you pushed it that far there was no way in hell it was casting successfully. I did read that Dragon Punch AA was a bit lame and almost never interrupted casters, but that would lead me to believe that mob channeling checks were not based solely off its current position, but only if a QUALIFIED attack / spell was executed on it (such as kick / bash / slam / knockback spell… perhaps normal melee could push but added no success to interrupting spell casting if only regular attacks pushed it) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!ms...I/STxXsxxeG58J (Posted: 02/06/2004) Thread titled: BST pet push Quote:
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The final post in here also indicates that ‘kicks and procs seem to be the main push culprits’ and seems to indicate that Backstab for rogues does not have a push value (perhaps by design from the devs to not hinder a rogue’s primary ability). Furthermore, if rogues were all behind the mob, it would not work as they describe to push around the tank, rogue’s regular melee attacks would push mob over the tank. http://eqshadowknight.net/archive/index.php/t-2758.html Quote:
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http://eqshadowknight.net/archive/index.php/t-4125.html Quote:
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The Conclusion: Hopefully this was compelling evidence to make a change to NPC channeling. Quite frankly it is just far too easy to interrupt a caster currently. This could have great game changing dynamics for P99, it could make wizards that have knockback components to spells more viable to interrupting dragons who are trying to gate, gating dragons may just need to be fought on their spawn point, monks won’t be able to solo high level casters with any reliability and would group more, high level shaman’s may not be able to farm certain mobs that CHeal, Paladins and SKs have more utility with bash causing heavy push, people may want large races with Slam as opposed to master race Iksar… and most importantly, Enchanters will begin to use Mana Sieve on Vox and HoT wurms once again. The list can go on... If a recycle server is to happen this would be a most welcome change, even with NPCs casting their high level spells it simply is too easy to interrupt them. Thanks for listening, I welcome any discussion as this is just my theory and I could be wrong on certain aspects. Perhaps the truth is in the middle where push only applied to your primary hand + special attacks, dual wield and double attacks ignored, could account for less push overall. Please share your thoughts, would love to hear them.
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Wedar - Level 60 Grandmaster <Azure Guard>
Check out my Zone Guide to The Hole The Hole wiki now fully updated and accurate: Hole Wiki Page | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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#2
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When charm soloing in Seb or HS, if the mob I'm killing is a caster he will get about 90% of his spells off through pet melee unless I interrupt them with a spell myself.
Granted, there is seldom a lot of push happening in this situation. Pushing a mob IS classic. We used to push mobs around to position them all the time back in 2000/2001. Now I honestly can't remember how much this pushing did affect their channeling - we usually mana sieved in order to avoid gates/CH's. Maybe other guilds did it differently. You might be right that the AMOUNT of push produced per melee attack is too big on P99. Now I'm all for making P99 harder to make for a more classic experience even if it involves slightly non-classic mechanic adjustments. | ||
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#3
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True, i don't mean to say pushing didn't exist, just how the pushing was done and the effectiveness of it to interrupt casting as well as the push value of a melee attack.
I guess, if you assume P99 mechanics for push are classic, i can't believe people would be making posts like this in era. Would be a bunch of people shaming them in response about how easy it is to push a mob to interrupt it.
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Wedar - Level 60 Grandmaster <Azure Guard>
Check out my Zone Guide to The Hole The Hole wiki now fully updated and accurate: Hole Wiki Page | ||
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#4
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I recall during Kunark on P99 watching monks solo Magus Rokyl because with epic fists they simply could interrupt almost every Cast because push was that extreme. I always felt this was incorrect.
Push to interrupt should be a lot more difficult. I also think that bash interrupts shouldn't be 100% chance to interrupt. You should be able to channel through a bash regardless of race. Something like a 40-50% chance to interrupt on successful bash (this goes both ways). I do like your recent classicquest though. Keep up god's work.
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#5
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As a warrior in live. I remember having to circle tank and shrink for corner tanking. Both of these contradict that there was "no" push in live. However I do agree that it seems to be far more extreme on p99.
In smaller groups I definitely remember it being very important to time your kicks and bashes to interrupt (specifically a very memorable KDT kill). Your evidence seems to support these two comments rather than some of the leaps that you take. This appears to be a common trend in your posting. I love the effort that you are putting into it, but perhaps you are a bit too far off course in some areas. Be careful as you are quickly reaching Daldaen levels of "Power-Drunken Immersion". This is defined as when one reaches the state of only clamoring for change to feed their own entertainment from trolling others by making gross implications from subpar evidence. Wish you the best friend! | ||
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#6
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If you read my reply to first comment I clarified that yes, push existed... I just question the values of push (was it all melee attacks? bash / slam / kick only? primary hand only?) and how guaranteed it was to bypass channeling and interrupt casting (I don't think it was a near guarantee like it is here).
I also clarified that yes there are contradictions out there from posts in era, but presented my case on what I think the true values are. Hell in HoT we can push a healing wurm all the way across exit hall in like 1.5 casts of their heal. I was a tank on live as well and I do not remember it being that extreme.
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Wedar - Level 60 Grandmaster <Azure Guard>
Check out my Zone Guide to The Hole The Hole wiki now fully updated and accurate: Hole Wiki Page | ||
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#7
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Numbers 3 and 4 (and 5) here are what I was specifically commenting on. Hope that provides sufficient clarification to get us on track. | |||
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#8
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I don't understand, you are doubting my theory on 3, 4, 5 only?
3) So I posted comments about the Dragon Punch thing pushing a mob across a room and still being able to gate, lead me to believe there is not a guaranteed distance to interrupt 4) Pretty clear that people griped about extreme channeling from NPCs and casters being extremely difficult to interrupt, posted many links about that 5) Posted that comment about a lower level ranger saying she can interrupt lower level mobs just fine with kick (80% success rate) and someone chimed in that wait until you are 40 and it is very hard. Lead me to believe there is a boost in higher level mobs
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Wedar - Level 60 Grandmaster <Azure Guard>
Check out my Zone Guide to The Hole The Hole wiki now fully updated and accurate: Hole Wiki Page | ||
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#9
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Believing rando scrubs on everquest forums complaining about wanting to make the game easier for them just isn't enough evidence for me.
From personal experience, I remember being able to interrupt mobs with kick with a 100% chance until velious was introduced. It wasn't a level issue, it was a change in mechanics that were released in velious. Could I be 100% accurate? no. I do remember timing kicks and bashes to CHing worms in Halls of Testing and everyone pushing their ass off. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didnt. We also werent in near full BIS with the majority of the raid wearing a 41% haste item. | ||
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#10
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Quote:
Maybe there was some client/server lag concerns and only a single round of melee was calculated into push, and bash / slam / kick also were added on top of that with a higher push value. Maybe there was some server tick stuff going on, I don't know exactly. I am welcoming conversation on the topic, hope to catch a dev's ear with it and get some feedback on how push came to be as it is on P99.
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Wedar - Level 60 Grandmaster <Azure Guard>
Check out my Zone Guide to The Hole The Hole wiki now fully updated and accurate: Hole Wiki Page | |||
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