What's the deal with mages?

[Troxx]

For the record I would never guild “main” a mage on p99 or waste dkp on one. It won’t make you a better mage in raids … and for group content the gear is unnecessary. Raid gear and the dkp needed to buy it is better spent on a tank/melee (main or alt).

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Based on the data I've seen they are not top tier DPS.

Your own data shows your pet doing around 67 DPS in Crypt, which is consistently being out-done by the Enchanter. With Nukes you are doing basically 100 DPS, + 18 DPS or so with DS, assuming the optimal scenario for DS.

Rogues are going to be doing higher damage than that too on blue mobs. As I said before, the last Rogue I parsed in Crypt was doing around 133 DPS on blue mobs.

The Rogue you are grouping with is level 52. They might have been lower when you grouped with them, as they started at 49 today. This means your DPS is going to be higher naturally. They have Epic and a 0.5 ratio weapon in offhand.

You edited out the discussion in the parses you quoted from me. Original source can be found here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...406923&page=19

Starting with this line of posts:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=181

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Bear in mind that things get weird when you combine fights. Actual dps levels for everyone involved (scaled or otherwise) are below actual real time values parsed.

I have highlighted myself and my 60 water pet unfocused.

Xeff: high level sk well geared; engaged first always
Grandmaster: 60 monk with tunare's fist of tunare and priceless velium wraps 15/20
Konober and Kekab: epic mage pet from another epic. I can only guess he didn't mask it or keep it hasted like it should have been.

Comparatively Ailowen + unfocused 60 water pet is the highlighted above.

See the monk's time engaged and you can see why he was below the SK and lower than me to such a degree; he spent a lot of time not engaged. What you can see is that mage dps is very good. This parse undervalues on the combine by a good 30% as my parse system is not perfect.

Keep in mind, I pointed out how gamparse gets weird when you compile multiple fights. What you can see, however, is how the total damage done panned out.

This monk was level 60 with tunare fists and 15/20 offhand (Grandmasterr). Xeff was a level 60 velious raid geared sk.

You then were all “Aha! You only did 80dps” based off the compiles despite being told why everyone’s was artificially low. 6 pages later I gave you samples of single target fights.

The next line of posts/parses you quoted can be found on this page:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...406923&page=25

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just got home from work. Want singles broken out not compiled? Heres a few

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Later on in same group after I had to make a new pet. I call this series "omg the mage out-dps'd the enchanter pet!

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Look man they just go on and on and all mostly look like this except the fights where I had to step away to take a pee or do something for my kid. I never got close to running out of mana the whole time we were down there. I told you it looks goofy and gets all skewed when you just do a mass fight compile.

Mages are excellent group dps.

Shamans ... are not. You don't invite shamans to the group for dps. You invite them for all the lovely things they do so absolutely well. Strong class, but not strong dps in a fast moving group setting. None of these mobs would have lived long enough for you to get any meaningful damage from your dots ... so you'd be left with JBB clicks and otherwise 'meh' nukes and a weakling pet.

#micdrop

These breakaway parses from the aggregate were to show you how gamparse gets goofy on big compiles and to show you that everyone’s dps was actually a lot higher than the aggregate.

Bear in mind this was all part of a 449 page thread where you were insisting shamans could compete with mages in a high dps, fast moving theoretical caster group of 4 that included 2 hasted quadding charm pets and a cleric … with either a mage or a shaman as the 4th.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These breakaway parses from the aggregate were to show you how gamparse gets goofy on big compiles and to show you that everyone’s dps was actually a lot higher than the aggregate.

If Gamparse "gets goofy", just post the logs so we can parse it. You keep saying the parses are off, but won't post the logs. Same with the other thread.

Why is this so difficult?

Just because you say the numbers are "higher", it doesn't mean your pet is automatically doing 80 DPS on average. The average DPS of your pet on the break-away parses was 56, not including the pet DD. Assuming 6 procs per minute, that is 67 DPS. None of your data currently shows an average of 80-85 DPS from your pet, which is what you were suggesting earlier.

Also remember the Rogue you were parsing was somewhere between level 49-52, so that isn't a fair comparison to Rogues. You are level 60. A level 49-52 Mage would also be doing lower damage.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because you say the numbers are "higher", it doesn't mean your pet is automatically doing 80 DPS on average. The average DPS of your pet on the break-away parses was 56, not including the pet DD. Assuming 6 procs per minute, that is 67 DPS. None of your data currently shows an average of 80 DPS from your pet.

Im hoping you are aware that KC mobs (lcy/parapets with VS pit ganks) and seb crypt mobs are very different sets of targets. Level range difference is NOT insignificant. The higher the level of the mob and the higher it’s ac … the lower the pet (and all melee for that matter) will perform. How well a pet does vs KC garbage does not directly translate to how well it will do in the bowels of a high level area of seb.

What is most telling on that aggregate parse was how well the mage + pet combo did compared to the level 60 raid monk with tunare fist and ST fist.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Fist_of_Nature

https://wiki.project1999.com/Pricele...ium_Fist_Wraps

That’s bleeding edge gear.

Monk clocked in at 48dps. Water pet (unfocused) at 40dps. Mage added another 39dps (though a chunk of that is from water pet procs). DS wasn’t captured.

I dunno man, a group geared mage netting 79 aggregate deflated dps vs a monk thusly geared netting a 48 aggregate deflated dps … … Im pretty sure that qualifies as “top tier group dps”.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Im hoping you are aware that KC mobs (lcy/parapets with VS pit ganks) and seb crypt mobs are very different sets of targets. Level range difference is NOT insignificant. The higher the level of the mob and the higher it’s ac … the lower the pet (and all melee for that matter) will perform. How well a pet does vs KC garbage does not directly translate to how well it will do in the bowels of a high level area of seb.

What is most telling on that aggregate parse was how well the mage + pet combo did compared to the level 60 raid monk with tunare fist and ST fist.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Fist_of_Nature

https://wiki.project1999.com/Pricele...ium_Fist_Wraps

That’s bleeding edge gear.

Monk clocked in at 48dps. Water pet (unfocused) at 40dps. Mage added another 39dps (though a chunk of that is from water pet procs). DS wasn’t captured.

I dunno man, a group geared mage netting 79 aggregate deflated dps vs a monk thusly geared netting a 48 aggregate deflated dps … … Im pretty sure that qualifies as “top tier group dps”.

Just post the logs so we can parse it. None of the data you've shown shows your pet doing 80-85 DPS on average. I am not sure why you keep making this claim when literally all of your data shows otherwise so far.

I am not saying the data doesn't exist, but you are very resistant to posting it for some strange reason.

For the Monk DPS parses, it is difficult to say how accurate they are since you haven't posted logs or videos. When parsing other players, you need to consistently be within range of them, or you will lose text messages. According to https://wiki.project1999.com/Tranquil_Staff a 60 Monk with tripple attack and T-Staff is getting 130 DPS. It is possible you simply missed a lot of the Monk's messages due to being out of range. In raid parses I have seen Monks near 100 DPS, and that is on a Mob with much higher level/AC than a blue mob you find in Seb.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

According to https://wiki.project1999.com/Tranquil_Staff a 60 Monk with tripple attack and T-Staff is getting 130 DPS. It is possible you simply missed a lot of the Monk's messages due to being out of range. In raid parses I have seen Monks near 100 DPS, and that is on a Mob with much higher level/AC than a blue mob you find in Seb.

I actually have a level 60 monk with TStaff. Do you? I have parsed it with 100% haste and max str. I know what they are capable of. It’s very solid dps but not as high as my mage + pet and certainly not 130 sustained dps on any content that yields xp … including KC trash.

TStaff monk at 60 will beat out the water pet by itself. So will my 60 warrior with 42/43 Frostreaver. My 60 paladin will hang out in about the same dps range as the pet by itself with NToV Greatspear of Dawn. But when you add in the magician nukes (even ignoring the DS), the mage wins consistently every time over the course of a session.

Sorry. Your source is wrong.

If I’m close enough to log my pets melee dps, I’m close enough to log and parse any melee dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I actually have a level 60 monk with TStaff. Do you? I have parsed it with 100% haste and max str. I know what they are capable of. It’s very solid dps but not as high as my mage + pet and certainly not 130 sustained dps on any content that yields xp … including KC trash.

TStaff monk at 60 will beat out the water pet by itself. So will my 60 warrior with 42/43 Frostreaver. My 60 paladin will hang out in about the same dps range as the pet by itself with NToV Greatspear of Dawn. But when you add in the magician nukes (even ignoring the DS), the mage wins consistently every time over the course of a session.

Sorry. Your source is wrong.

If I’m close enough to log my pets melee dps, I’m close enough to log and parse any melee dps.

Raid geared monks can parse 90+ DPS on raid targets. Raid geared rogues can parse over 100 DPS on raid targets. These numbers are going to be higher on blues. Your Monk parse in Sebilis is simply wrong.

You can post logs of your monk and your mage if you are so confident. It is strange you are so relucant to post something that is easy for you to acquire.

[long.liam]

Originally Posted by mojojellyfish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are they really as bad as people say? I like the "boring" classes, but all I ever see about them is how bad they are. Starting up on green again and they seem like a solid class from a relative noobs standpoint.

Mages are only bad or weak compared to all the other caster classes and honestly it's really only significant post 45 when NPC HP and Max hit is so much more than summoned pets. Also no CC makes them basically on par with a warrior or Rogue for survivability. Although, they do gate which helps some, but they are also way less tanky than a rogue or warrior.

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by long.liam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mages are only bad or weak compared to all the other caster classes and honestly it's really only significant post 45 when NPC HP and Max hit is so much more than summoned pets. Also no CC makes them basically on par with a warrior or Rogue for survivability. Although, they do gate which helps some, but they are also way less tanky than a rogue or warrior.

At 45 mage still feels very powerful
It's 55+ that they start to falter,and really only in a solo setting
Mages are a great group class if their careful with their pet not breaking mezes.
I have never seen my 60 water pet parse over 90+ DPS, maybe on very low lvl mobs that's possible

[Snaggles]

As with most posts we should probably define what “top tier dps” means. Even a raw number is useless unless compared to players numbers on the same fight. A rogue on Dain is not the same as a rogue on some random blue in Seb. It’s highly dependent on…
* Level vs player or pet (advantage PC)
* If the dps player has a good tank working with them (pet won’t pull aggro; repositioning for backstabs with a pet is slower)
* Speed of engage and ability to track mob if pathing sucks (advantage pet)
* Is it even viable to summon a pet at all? (Most raid advantages = PC)

I’ve parsed a lot of focused water pets on silly fights. Vindi, Xenevorash, Brother Z/Q, Lhranc, Miragul. Assuming you pick up all the melee on your log (pets stand back further than most PC’s) outside 60+ stuff they can do solid damage. Most Vindi’s with they do 40-45dps which seems low until you scroll down to how many PC’s are being beat by the pet. Some weird high AC fights like Xene they can easily out damage players.

The epic pet doesn’t backstab. This is a white damage that lands pretty hard even on 60+ targets. Even with 60 as the max melee hit (which can take half a dozen summons sometimes to get) vs 67 as a consistent summon on the epic neither will land spells on those tougher targets. Advantage Water, to about 10%. Even if spells do land you can’t ignore the extra 180 BS if positioning is possible or you don’t have a bad tank. I’ve beat more epic pets than I’ve lost to. You just have to show up early to get a good one and try a bit harder pointing it in the right direction.

I’ve said it before, a proper mage pet on raid level stuff about on par with a generic level 60 knight or ranger. On lower level grind stuff (blues to the player) they are closer to casual geared monk or even rogue capabilities. Not talking Mryo dagger, primal, Abashi players. They hold up better than one would think being level 45 or whatever. Not to mention the mage having a great DS and 150dps on tap for when it’s needed.