"Need before greed"

[Keebz]

Originally Posted by Tilien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we assume that you are a decent level and can make 100 plat an hour farming easily... And it takes you 1 hour to sell the Jagger band for 150 plat...

You got 50 plat from looting the item.

The warrior who uses it saves himself spending 150 plat and has therefore made 150 plat from looting the item.

Therefore if you looting the item to sell means you value your 50 plat over the warrior's 150 plat. This is greedy.

#economics
(Hopefully no one takes this too serious)

It's not even your 50 plat. It's a 1:6 chance to get that 50pp. How much could you sell your roll on jagged band for? 10pp? That is what you are sacrificing to give someone a gear upgrade. Not to mention it's a waste of everyone's time.

Obviously things change when it comes to 1k+ highly sought after and liquid liquid items. Greed rolls on fbss and topor make sense. On a jagged band? Not so much.

[Frostback]

No one in their right mind would call need before greed on a fbss. The value of the item makes a big difference, also your ability to farm rare items/make pp has an impact on this as well. I don't spend a lot of time in the ec tunnel so I tend to sell things cheap and fast. If an item drops and is under 500p, i'll ask if anyone needs it, and if they don't, roll it up. If you're a mage and you lose a roll for some high level research pages, then offer pp to the person who won it. Usually if you're nice, the person who won it will give you the item at a discounted price. Having a random lottery to award a valuable item to party members is not greedy, it's fair.

"I'm a mage so I deserve the items that I can use!" Grow up.... Or solo because you don't know how to share.

[Secrets]

Short of the item being no-drop, you should be always, always, ALWAYS be rolling with the intent to sell as predefined loot rules. Plat has value, your character being a certain class in the group does not.

NBG on items you can trade is an example of people who think they are better than others. It exists to fulfill a desire to take a shortcut over other players.

Best example of this:

You get an FBSS to drop. You could buy 20 items for the price of that FBSS if you're shoddily geared as a <class here>, or you could equip it as a <class here>.
<other class> claims need before greed, who is a melee who would actually use the item. <other class> has now wasted your time and money by taking the item over you for a small upgrade for them. Chances are, you'll never group with that person again and you're higher level as a result of that group without a chance at gear.

I sincerely hope Pantheon learns that tradeable items are okay, but shared group loot of any item is not. This is one of the few mechanics problems in MMOs that are largely solved by individual, personal roll systems on NPC death.

[Axlrose]

For those groups that have a roll on everything:

- Do you roll on vendor trash items? As Secrets mentions, "Plat has value", so every bone chip, rusty weapon, and spider silk has value!

- Once you "win" a roll, do you let everybody else eventually win an item too, or are you rolling on each and every item, because again, everything has value?

It appears Project 1999 is pushing players to be loot whores over friendly game play. I disagree that "plat has value" in a monetary sense since a game like Eve Online does place value upon ISK (game currency) since it can translate into subscription time. Since this game does not have a subscription, basically it comes down to platinum becomes an element of time spent (or wasted, depending upon your view). Thus every item has value on potentially less time spent camping for platinum which can buy improvements to camp for bigger ticket platinum items to transfer into greater improvements to ... etc., etc., etc.

Before I used to be very against real money transfers since i viewed games like this as "fun, with a bit of luck to win something nice". But since everything should be rolled upon since everything has value that eventually translates into time, then if I have the (illegal) means to advance without spending the time and have the real life resources to spend, why not? Let someone else perform the grind and roll for everything while I can reward them and get rewarded simultaneously.

Good thing I solo in a group atmosphere game. Some group members would annoy me to no end...

[Corbin]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Plat has value, your character being a certain class in the group does not.

It should though right? From a RPG development perspective, the player who is represented by their character within the group, whose class greatly defines the manner of their contribution, will hopefully be valued for that particular contribution in addition to their personality. This is something I always thought EQ did better than most newer MMO's. It is one of the reasons I come back to the game.

Don't we want the player to identify with his role and extend this to his bonding with his community? Not to utterly define or limit the player, just to reinforce his "role" within the "game"? I knew many players on Everquest live who were profoundly (in gaming terms) affected by this intended design.

P1999 has developed it's own particular culture for a variety of reasons. Personally, I find much of it lacks what I most enjoyed on Live. However, I love the content and appreciate all of the work you guys do. I understand the arguments in favor of the greed roll and why it would be preferred on the Blue server. It's sensible in that context. I'd just prefer to play with players whose company I value enough, that NBG go's without saying.

PS. O, in light of the above! Merry Christmas Flec & Typhoid, as well to the generous staff of P1999 and for all of it's players [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Secrets [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

NBG on items you can trade is an example of people who think they are better than others. It exists to fulfill a desire to take a shortcut over other players.

Best example of this:

You get an FBSS to drop. You could buy 20 items for the price of that FBSS if you're shoddily geared as a <class here>, or you could equip it as a <class here>.
<other class> claims need before greed, who is a melee who would actually use the item. <other class> has now wasted your time and money by taking the item over you for a small upgrade for them. Chances are, you'll never group with that person again and you're higher level as a result of that group without a chance at gear.

I sincerely hope Pantheon learns that tradeable items are okay, but shared group loot of any item is not. This is one of the few mechanics problems in MMOs that are largely solved by individual, personal roll systems on NPC death.

Imho, at source it's primarily an itemization and content design problem, rather than a band aid loot mechanic requirement. However, I did consider instancing and No Drop loot lesser evils in their time.

[nicemace]

the NBG crowd are the greedy ones.

[Erati]

I have fun when people get upgrades.

[Videri]

Originally Posted by Tilien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

sell the Jagger band for 150 plat...

Can we PLEASE agree to call them Jagger bands from here on out?

Quote this post...if you’ve got the stones.

[Richco07]

Originally Posted by Hazek [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJX1REQB12o

It's always fun to watch you initially act like a dick to people for no reason and then get butt hurt at their response.

Keep being bad bro. Something something boiling water in mouth islam and going to hell.

[M.J.]

Didn't bother reading through all this crap because like most people that favor NBG and GBN when it favors me, I prefer my own opinion to those of people I assume are idiots for wasting their breath on the subject.

Should a cleric get to NBG a thick banded belt because it allows them to wear 3 more pieces of zero wisdom ac only Bronze without becoming encumbered?

Should a warrior without procs on their weapons get to take anything with dex over a melee with a proc weapon?

Should level 49 research words worth 1-2k each ever got to a class that can't use it?

The answer to any of those questions is OFC yes or no depending on whether or not it benefits you. How many people would keep their mouth shut when they valued the exp from a group over the loot, even if they felt that NBG of a person that took a technical upgrade wasn't warranted because the player in question - like a cleric that takes a high strength item so they can wear higher ac items - never ever does the one thing that would technically justify their getting said item.

The primary justification for always randoming on higher value items is that a person in a group that is ideal for them doesn't deserve the item exclusively because they haven't earned it, or the same person receiving the item won't benefit any of the other persons in a group should those present never group again with one another in the less than ideal conditions that would warrant such upgrades. In effect the upgrade doesn't ever matter unless the "value" of any person who would potentially receive a given item or spell is considered at least equal to the direct potential loss of just a chance at that same loot.

Basically people take offense at GBN when they are the only person whom an item exclusively benefits in a group because it means 5/6 people other than themselves consider them not worthy of foregoing a chance at that same item.

In summary: GBN gets peoples' Irish up because 4/5 people other than the person themselves and the winner of a roll would rather get nothing than do them a favor. This violates basically every rational social model any human being would engage in outside a zero sum MMO setting. The only time you might see such an arrangement is when the spoils are distributed after victory and when a group is "done."

The average pixel adventure is thus an abrupt and premature end that is the equivalent to the end of World War 1: where the victors and those that decide what is fair at the outset of post-war "negotiations" were allowed to take overly long to decide what was best for themselves while very blatantly involving those meant to pay.

Thus while my preference is for whatever benefits me, which would ideally be always getting invited to awesome groups where I gladly embrace NBG because I like and value those I'm grouping with, less than ideally and typically I despise the NBG crowd because they want to rule lawyer their way into loot and advantages whenever it benefits them and not in any principled way, that or they're those that would strong arm me into their "ideal" interpretation of fairness as a condition of joining their little party before I can take their measure.

Anyone that disagrees with any of the above is a moron or a worthless asshole.