Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

FSI might have saved me in some of those situations too (but not all! Caster mobs anyone?).

Everyone who has been in more then two groups knows that snare is important in crowded dangerous places, not in outdoors zones surrounded by mobs half your level��

I made another video showing me kill Cryptmaster placeholder. This is in Chardok, with me killing 3 mobs in close proximity in 15 minutes. I need to do that because respawn timers are around 20 minutes. The reason why the video cuts once around 4 minutes 18 seconds is because I /q to avoid the faction hit. That is also why the video ends a few seconds early, right before the kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c

1. Croweded dangerous place? Check
2. Indoor zone? Check
3. Not surrounded by mobs half my level? Check
4. Getting constantly hit by a spell caster mob? Check

If I had moved 10 more feet in any direction in that video, I would have agroed a bunch of mobs and died. There is no where in this video where snare would have been useful. In fact, Clinging Darkness would have killed me. If the mobs ran for two ticks while waiting for their health to get to 12% or where-ever it needs to be for Clinging Darkness, I would have agroed mobs and died. If you take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c&t=82s specifically, you will see how close the mobs are. They are even closer when I am killing the Cryptmaster. Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c&t=525s and you will briefly see the name of a skeleton or two in the near distance. To the right of me (you can't see it) is a skeleton no more than 5 or 6 feet away.

Troll Regeneration wouldn't have helped here either. The lowest I get in the video is 17%, or around 450 Health https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c&t=104s , this was due to a lucky life tap from the Necro. At that point, Troll Regeneration would have given me something like 140 HP. I would not have died at 450 HP, or 590 HP.

EDIT: Also, Chardok mobs don't run (at least not the ones I've fought). So Snare Neck is basically useless in Chardok.

Also, notice the Cryptmaster is carrying a Torch. This means he is more deadly than usual, because he is dual wielding.

[Bardp1999]

Best shaman is barbarian (eyepatch) with full rubicite armor and a glorious horned helm, or even possibly a polar bear helm. Ogres and Trolls cant even sniff Barbarians in fashion quest, and fashion quest is the ultimate end game of P99. Therefore barbarian is the master race in concern to the shaman question.

[greenspectre]

Originally Posted by Bardp1999 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Best shaman is barbarian (eyepatch) with full rubicite armor and a glorious horned helm, or even possibly a polar bear helm. Ogres and Trolls cant even sniff Barbarians in fashion quest, and fashion quest is the ultimate end game of P99. Therefore barbarian is the master race in concern to the shaman question.

This is the gospel truth. I can't count the number of between-cast butt-scratches that happened in those videos. Barbs can do the same stuff but look FLY while doing it.

Also, disagree on face. Daniel Day-Lewis barbface is the best.

[rabids]

Please show me some encounters with high level monsters that were considerably easier with Snare Neck than without.

First off, why does it have to be considerable? A lot of constant bonuses are also very nice. But ok, for instance if you want to farm the beetles in sebilis, there is a krup wanderer that can gate down to the guardian if its a caster. If you have to root it, you risk it gating and casting some very nasty DD while you root it. Not efficient and potencially very dangerous. Soloing in the crypt in seb, its nice with snare so that you only have to kill it down to 10% (keep it rooted till the snare actually stops the mob.) Dungeon crawling down in the hole there are a LOT of places snare is very practical. It wont always save your life, but its enough for me with a constant make your life easier.

I never said VP loot was easy.

I said anyone who actually becomes a Torpor Shaman has enough time and money to get a VP spear.

These are basically the same thing. Maybe easy is the wrong word to sum up what you are saying, but I still say that this is wrong. Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual. If you want to get it yourself, you only need up to one group. Cant compare that with top end raiding. We are talking about the best race for a lvl 60 torpor shammy, not a lvl 60 torpor shammy with all the drops they want from raids, no?

You cannot get FSI from ANY zone at ANY point in the game.

This is a good point. Not enough for me to feel that ogre would have been better for my play style, but I agree 100% with this point.

Where did I say FSI isn't a marginal bonus?

You know what, I read one of your previous posts wrong. You havent said that it isnt a marginal bonus. But you do keep saying that FSI can save your life and regen and snare is at best utility. They can all save your life.

Troll Regeneration would have saved 48 seconds of healing at the end of the fight. Period.

Lots of other places in this discussion do you say that FSI can save your life, while regen can only save you some time and snare isnt really needed. All three can save your life now and then.

I have shown real life examples, and the actual math. It is really that simple. I am trying to show reality. For some reason, people think there is some kind of mystique behind these racials/abilities.

Just because you use videos that shows regen not being great doesnt mean that it cant be great. In none of your videos does FSI help you that much either. And i dont have a problem with your math, I just have a problem with your interpretation of it. I dont think that there is some kind of mystique behind this, who in here has led you to conclude that?

I am not trying to be arrogant or know-it-all. I am just trying to show the facts, so other players can benefit.

I dont believe that you are trying to be arrogant, or that you as a person are. I get the opposite impression, that you are respectful to the ones that disagree with you. But I feel that your arguments are a bit arrogant, because you are saying that you know best for everyone. Even though (Im guessing) you have never tried to play a torpor shammy with snare a snare clicky. Have you played a troll shammy with torpor?

I havent played an ogre, but then I only agrue that some of us know best witch race is best for our play style. I am not saying that you would be better off playing a troll.

1. Croweded dangerous place? Check
2. Indoor zone? Check
3. Not surrounded by mobs half my level? Check
4. Getting constantly hit by a spell caster mob? Check

I forget to note that they also has to be runners:P Nice video, but not an example of why snare neck doesnt really help. Also, killing a mob that is fighting back the last 10% is a lot more work then killing one thats just standing there.

Troll Regeneration wouldn't have helped here either. The lowest I get in the video is 17%, or around 450 Health

True, it wouldnt have saved your life this time. But you would have had more then 450 left.

If I were to record fights I have had, I guess I could have made a lot of videos of me not being saved by FSI. That wouldnt have proven that FSI cant save me.

I would guess that some times you die with a small margin, and in all those cases being troll might have saved you. Maybe from AEs? If you die to AE's FSI doesnt help at all. Regen can save you. Anyone been below 5-10% from AE's and then survived? I have.

I agree that FSI is pretty cool and I wish I had it. But I love my regen and snare and I really feel that it gives me more consistent bonuses. though sometimes it is almost completely useless, but it doesnt have to save my life every encounter to be good.

I wasnt really planning on getting drawn into this discussion, but here I am[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It has at least led to me wanting to pick up my old shaman and play p99 again.

I think bardp1999 summed it up pretty nicely:

Best shaman is barbarian (eyepatch) with full rubicite armor and a glorious horned helm, or even possibly a polar bear helm. Ogres and Trolls cant even sniff Barbarians in fashion quest, and fashion quest is the ultimate end game of P99. Therefore barbarian is the master race in concern to the shaman question.

Min-maxing isnt the same for everyone. Barb is the best shammy race for min-maxing.

[greenspectre]

https://imgur.com/a/oGVX2Zb

You know I had to do it to 'em.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wasnt really planning on getting drawn into this discussion, but here I am[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It has at least led to me wanting to pick up my old shaman and play p99 again.

You totally should! Thanks for taking the time, I always enjoy discussion[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Min-maxing isnt the same for everyone. Barb is the best shammy race for min-maxing.

This is what I mean when I say mystique. Min/Max is factual, not personal preference. There is a Shaman race that has the best racial bonuses for the Shaman class mathematically and statistically. I have said multiple times in this thread if fashion quest is your preference, that is perfectly fine. No Shaman race will give you a huge advantage. But that isn't Min/Max, that is personal preference and fashion questing.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First off, why does it have to be considerable? A lot of constant bonuses are also very nice. But ok, for instance if you want to farm the beetles in sebilis, there is a krup wanderer that can gate down to the guardian if its a caster. If you have to root it, you risk it gating and casting some very nasty DD while you root it. Not efficient and potencially very dangerous. Soloing in the crypt in seb, its nice with snare so that you only have to kill it down to 10% (keep it rooted till the snare actually stops the mob.) Dungeon crawling down in the hole there are a LOT of places snare is very practical. It wont always save your life, but its enough for me with a constant make your life easier.

The reason why I say considerable is because I have still yet to find a situation where Snare Neck would have given me some kind of advantage. I am not denying the utility of snare, I am mostly pointing out that Shaman strategies and popular farm locations don't really need it. This is why Troll Snare Neck isn't any kind of amazing item that changes what a Shaman can do. And as I keep saying, if there is a super rare situation that could only be done with snare, you have other options. When using the FD ring, for example, you don't get many charges to work with before you have to go back up to Sky. With Puppet Strings before it got nerfed, you had to get two and recharge them in a safe location. With only 10 charges, you didn't have a lot to work with either. It isn't anything new for Shamans to have to recharge or re-buy some clickies for very specific encounters. So if there is a very rare encounter where snare is needed, just think of Yarn Ball or Scepter as one of those items. And if you want a good, infinite snare, you can go after VP spear too.

I am glad you brought up Gating. If you watch the Chardok video, the specific reason why I am fighting the first Gravebinder in that tiny hallway is because he can Gate. If you fight a mob close enough to their spawn point, they will not Gate. His spawn point is close enough to the mobs on the left to agro them if he did Gate. But since he is close to the spawn point, he will not Gate the last few feet back to his spawn point.

In Seb specifically, I haven't had a problem with Gating mobs yet. Maybe I'll make a video about that next. The caster frogs don't have a ton of HP, and you can resist most if not all of their spells with resistance gear. You can also use root and Line of Sight to avoid their spell casting. Most of the time you can just kill the caster mobs at their spawn point. I haven't done Seb in a while, so I can't recall that specific pather. You could probably kill it without snare just fine. Let it run and tripple DoT it right before it goes to 20%.

I will totally concede that snare would be useful in this specific situation:

1. You cannot kill the Gating mob at or near it's spawn point.
2. The mob DOES run at 20%.
3. You cannot create a runway big enough to allow the mob to run unless you have Clinging Darkness.

I have yet to run into this situation, however. I specifically say Clinging Darkness in number 3 because if you need a regular snare to do the trick, then you MUST use Yarn ball or VP spear.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These are basically the same thing. Maybe easy is the wrong word to sum up what you are saying, but I still say that this is wrong. Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual. If you want to get it yourself, you only need up to one group. Cant compare that with top end raiding. We are talking about the best race for a lvl 60 torpor shammy, not a lvl 60 torpor shammy with all the drops they want from raids, no?

Top end raiding isn't that hard, it just takes time. If you have the time to create a level 60 Torpor Shaman, you have the time to top end raid. I have done both[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I have already discussed the "Fungi's are easy to get" argument in another thread I think. There are four problems with this argument when talking about casual players:

1. Casual players don't have the time to sink multiple hours into a King camp. If you can do that, you can raid. That is my point. You need to be EXTREMELY lucky to get a Fungi drop in 2 hours at King. If you can play 4+ hours at a time, you could easily raid.
2. It can take a while to even get a King group. That camp is done by 3-6 player max, and they usually replace people with their friends if they can. You really need to get lucky or know people to consistently get a King group.
3. You can get horribly unlucky. I myself have spent quite a bit of time at King, and have yet to see the King even spawn, much less drop a Fungi Tunic or Fungi Staff.
4. If you are a level 60 Shaman without Torpor, you are less likely to get a King group, because King groups would prefer a Torpor Shaman. Not saying you can't get a King group as a Pre-Torpor Shaman, it simply further decreases your chances.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lots of other places in this discussion do you say that FSI can save your life, while regen can only save you some time and snare isnt really needed. All three can save your life now and then.

I never denied that regeneration couldn't save your life. Of course it can. The reason why I keep saying "It would have saved 48 seconds at the end", is because in those videos, I never get to a point where it would have saved my life. You can do the math across the entire video, and compare my heal bar with and without Troll Regeneration. If you never get low enough for it to save your life, then all it did was save 48 seconds of recovery time, which is not very useful due to how quickly you gain resources back. That is all I am saying.

I am simply trying to deduce which ability will save your life MORE. That is what determines which ability is superior. Of course there are some situations where a little extra regeneration would have saved your life. But if that situation occurs 20% less often than an FSI save, for example, then FSI is the superior Min/Max choice. This is not because Trolls have never been saved by their regeneration, it is because Ogres have been saved by FSI MORE. And again, I have yet to find a situation where a 6 second clicky with a terrible snare would have saved my life. Most Shaman strategies and camps have a solution to the problems they face without snare.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even though (Im guessing) you have never tried to play a torpor shammy with snare a snare clicky. Have you played a troll shammy with torpor?

I have never played a Troll Shaman. You are correct. But you really don't need to play a Troll Shaman specifically to know where snare is useful, and how much damage mitigation you get with Troll regeneration. This is another thing I kind of think as a mystique. You don't always have to play the specific race to figure out the pros/cons. I am confident enough in my knowledge of Torpor Shamans, and Everquest mechanics in general, to make these deductions. I also have video proof[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a 56 Troll Shadowknight, so I can easily test Troll Regeneration AND Clinging Darkness.

I also have a 24 Cleric with the Snare Neck, so I know how it operates. The cast time is long, the duration is short, the snare is bad, and resistances can happen.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would guess that some times you die with a small margin, and in all those cases being troll might have saved you. Maybe from AEs? If you die to AE's FSI doesnt help at all. Regen can save you. Anyone been below 5-10% from AE's and then survived? I have.

This is a perfect situation where Troll Regeneration could save your life, whereas FSI would not do anything. The only reason why I say this is a VERY small percentage of saving you, is because of how AoE fights typically go. I have been in a lot of them. Resistances and Max HP play a much bigger role overall than Troll Regeneration in MOST cases. I am not saying Trolls have never been saved here due to their extra Regeneration, but it is usually pretty clear cut if you are going to die or not to AoE spam. At least from my experience. In many AoE fights, Line of Sight is used to avoid AoE spam. In the fights where it cannot be avoided, the fight is usually pretty quick. Either the raid wipes, or it wins.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I also have a 24 Cleric with the Snare Neck, so I know how it operates. The cast time is long, the duration is short, the snare is bad, and resistances can happen.

Ya the cast time is long. But not a big deal if you are soloing a slowed mob. You can also mediate during the cast time if its possible to do so. Duration is 48 seconds. I'm not sure I'd call that "short". Resists do happen so you have decide if you want to refresh it with plenty of time to spare or risk it breaking. In which case it'snot a big deal to go back to rooting. At the end of the day it's pretty much an auto win if you can get a mob to flee into durp mode. Root requires you to continue fighting a summoning mob and it can break any time. If you need a mob held somewhere with 100 certainty it doesn't move at all snare is waaaaaaaay better than keeping it rooted because of root's random duration.

Actually it looks like its bugged on blue perhaps green too and is only lasting 5 ticks.

[kjs86z]

I have a barb shaman and I look far better than any ogre or troll.

Does anything else matter?

[Snaggles]

Yea except a 24 cleric doesn’t have Malo and runners have like 100 hps left in the tank. If you can take the time to click a JBB you can mix in a snare attempt every three or four JBB’s.

This whole thread is a bit silly. Racial perks for a warrior or SK are hardly with the debate. Let alone a torp epic sham getting into a very long battle. Theory crafting is fun but don’t think it’s going to make or break the game...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Duration is 48 seconds. I'm not sure I'd call that "short".

https://wiki.project1999.com/Clinging_Darkness

Duration is 6 ticks. 6 x 6 = 36 seconds. The cast time is 6 seconds, so you lose 1 tick if you want constant overlap. I believe you can get up to 42 seconds out of the snare if you cast it right after a server tick occurs. So you have to re-cast it every 3-6 ticks, depending on when you cast it tick wise, and how many potential resists you feel comfortable with.

With all of the casting Shamans need to do, that is not great. You can only really maintain it on one mob at a time, without constantly casting Snare Neck. You would need to root the other mobs while babysitting the chosen mob with Snare Neck.

On top of that, the snare is bad. Mobs don't stop running at 20% with Clinging Darkness. So you are still assuming you are in an area where your runway is ONLY big enough for a mob to run with Clinging Darkness until 15%-10% health. I just haven't really seen that situation. I would love to, if you can show it.

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Root requires you to continue fighting a summoning mob and it can break any time. If you need a mob held somewhere with 100 certainty it doesn't move at all snare is waaaaaaaay better than keeping it rooted because of root's random duration.

Can you show an example of a summoning mob that runs, and snare helps considerably? I showed WW Dragons. They run and summon, but snare wouldn't have mattered here. Yes, snare could have saved me a few minutes because I wouldn't have to melee the mob down (it is hard to cast on mobs underwater due to LoS issues). But it doesn't make me any safer. The mob is still running in an area without adds. If I wanted to save time, I would just root the Dragon at 20% and finish it off. I have plenty of resources left at the end of the fight to do that. A Troll would still only save 48 seconds of recovery time, whether they snare, root, or chase.

With Cliff Golems and Chardok, the mobs don't run, so snare is useless. In Seblis the trash mobs are considerably weaker, and I haven't ran into any situations where snare would have helped. Kill Gate mobs at their spawn points, and use resistance gear and LoS to prevent nasty spells from landing.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yea except a 24 cleric doesn’t have Malo and runners have like 100 hps left in the tank. If you can take the time to click a JBB you can mix in a snare attempt every three or four JBB’s.

This whole thread is a bit silly. Racial perks for a warrior or SK are hardly with the debate. Let alone a torp epic sham getting into a very long battle. Theory crafting is fun but don’t think it’s going to make or break the game...

You can watch my videos I posted previously. This isn't theory craft. You can do the math at any time in the videos. I was simply pointing out I do have the Snare Neck, AND I have a Shadowknight, so I am pretty comfortable with my knowledge in how the Snare Neck operates, and how Clinging Darkness operates. I agree Shamans get less resists because of Malo and Tash stick, but hard mobs resist more often, even with debuffs.