Game Mechanics: Defensive skill check order incorrect?

[Schortt]

The order of defensive checks seems to be off for a number of reasons. It currently seems to go something like this: Miss, Riposte, (Block/Parry/Dodge?), Hit.

The first thing that suggested this to me is that when using a defensive discipline that is supposed to trigger a 100% defensive skill check rate (whirlwind etc.), mobs in the correct position are still missing rather than being riposted, dodged, etc. My recollection from my Rogue on live was that when you used disciplines, especially the various riposte disciplines, you riposted EVERY hit that came your way, not just ones that didn't miss. This is not the case on P1999:

[Wed Mar 07 15:24:56 2012] Your instincts take over as you turn aside every attack.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 136 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:57 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but a goblin taskmaster dodges!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 27 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:58 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 110 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 37 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 110 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 64 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 76 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 91 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 150 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 75 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 35 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] You crush a goblin depredator for 152 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:24:59 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You crush a goblin cavehunter for 72 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You kick a goblin taskmaster for 37 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:00 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:01 2012] A goblin depredator tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 148 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 33 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] You try to crush a goblin depredator, but miss!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:02 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 69 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:03 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to crush YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] You mend your wounds and heal some damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:04 2012] You crush a goblin taskmaster for 32 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] You crush a goblin depredator for 140 points of damage.
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] YOU are burned!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin depredator tries to slash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin cavehunter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] A goblin taskmaster tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] You try to crush a goblin taskmaster, but a goblin taskmaster parries!
[Wed Mar 07 15:25:05 2012] Your fury fades.

I have tried to find in-era data to back this up but have come up somewhat empty. However, lots of google searches have produced results from 2004+ that suggests that the following order is correct:

when determining whether or not you are hit by an NPC, EQ goes through the calculation in this order:
Block, Riposte, Parry, Dodge, Shield Block, Miss

Sources: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...p/t-16637.html
http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?p=192021

The order it checks is: Block, Riposte, Dodge, Miss

When your auto riposte disc is running, block still triggers but dodge doesn't.
When voiddance is running block,riposte,and dodge all can fire. so misses are checked last.

This is why increasing block rate can make it look like your miss rate is lowered.

Source: http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...p/t-10739.html

So, if this information is correct for classic era combat, Warriors and Rogues should see nothing but ripostes when they use furious and counterattack, while monks should see a few blocks but mostly ripostes when using whirlwind. Likewise, defensive skill rates should stay the same regardless of the level of mob being fought, which they currently do not as miss checks first. Here's some parses to back that up:

Level 60 monk tanking Droga mobs:
Total damage: 9022
Avg hit: 33
Swings: 913
Defended: 103 (11.3%)
Hit: 266 (29.1%)
Missed: 544 (59.6%)
Accuracy: 32.8%
Dodged: 26 (3.1%)
Parried: 0 (0%)
Blocked: 59 (6.5%)
Riposted: 18 (2.1%)
Absorbed: 0 (0%)

369 non-misses, 103 defenses = 25.9% defense rate

Level 60 monk tanking Isle 3 mobs in Sky:
Total damage: 17392 
Avg hit: 153 
Swings: 214 
Defended: 35 (16.4%) 
Hit: 113 (52.8%) 
Missed: 66 (30.8%) 
Accuracy: 63.1% 
Dodged: 7 (3.8%) 
Parried: 0 (0%) 
Blocked: 19 (8.9%) 
Riposted: 9 (4.6%) 
Absorbed: 0 (0%)

148 non-misses, 35 defenses = 24% defense rate

Notice that if you remove misses, the defensive skill rates are roughly the same.

This information could very well be based on some sort of change that was made post-classic that I wasn't around for (quit shortly after SoL released) but it does jive with my memory of using riposte disc on my rogue during classic. If other people remember differently or especially if anyone has parses of old discipline uses floating around that would be great. Likewise, if anyone has info on how this stuff works on EQMac that would be helpful.

I couldn't find any similar threads on the forums so if this has been discussed before, my apologies. I thought it was at least worth being brought up if for no other reason than that someone could set me straight!

[Treats]

You can only Riposte a certain amount of attacks per round.

If you are fighting a lot of mobs at once it should only work on one (possibly two, I don't know).

Unsure what the maximum amount of attacks is.

I would guess possibly four per round.

On Live it was not possible to Riposte Disc mobs that flurried (you could riposte the regular attacks but if the mob flurried those would hit you).

[Schortt]

OK, so everything you said might be true (I have no in-era evidence to the contrary) but nothing about my parses on P99 suggests that it's been implemented that way.

Misses are clearly checked before any defensive skills, and that's my main concern. Riposte also appears to be checked before block, which according to the sources I've found is also incorrect.

Speaking more directly to your reply, I clearly remember being able to turn on counterattack on my rogue on live and dishing out ripostes without limits to pretty much everything that happened to be attacking me, though I do remember flurry being an exception (those damn flurry drakes in NToV were the lesson in this case). There are also a lot of people in the various threads I looked at who talk about using rip discs to "blow up" train pulls to AA grind (obviously post-classic era, but like I said, in-era evidence is not readily available). I remember doing this as well during my tenure, all of which suggests there was not some sort of limit on successful riposte checks over any given period of time.

Finally, even if there is some limit on normal combat ripostes, disciplines have always broken the normal combat mechanics in various ways.

[Odeseus]

Rip discs and avoidance discs were almost complete immunity to normal attacks. Similar to the ranger disc that I'm blanking on at the moment. At least in velious (again, if my memory is right and I don't claim that it always is), my guild used to pull, then use a ranger or melee with a rip/avoidance disc while the main tank built agro and the CH chain started up (the ranger/melee would die, was normally a ranger which led to the "sacrificing a ranger" thing we all remember). Rangers were best at the task because they had snap agro with spells...........and because their DPS was considered most expendable lol.

But if a monk or rogue could hold the agro, they could do it as well with their discs. Monks worked well because if everything worked perfectly, he could FD and save a death. Rarely happened but hey, there was hope.

Helped with agro issues on the tank. Too often the tank didn't have great agro the first few seconds in, and the CHs would draw agro to the clerics, so you needed a moment for him to build it. Give him a few seconds to get a few procs off.

[Treats]

Yeah, definately could be wrong. (Positive on the flurry part though)

I was just under the assumption it was on a per round basis.

Kanras would need to post about the skill check order.

Possibly he has other info regarding max ripostes or how it works as well.

[Brinkman]

If using a reposte disc, you should reposte every single attack, as long as the mobs are in the proper postion to be reposted. Thats how I remember it working on my monk from kunark till even now on live.

There is no limit to attacks per round. ( see shakerpageing from PoP era ).

I am unsure of special attacks like flurry or rampage.

I agree the melee check order is most defintaly wrong, however some kunark -era, or at the very least velious-era links are needed to make this get handled sooner.

[kanras]

Good post. Right now, it looks like it's miss -> riposte -> block -> parry -> dodge. Will look into it later.

[kanras]

Fixed, pending update. It'll be block -> parry -> riposte -> dodge -> miss.

http://www.mindwerks.org/eq/Azharan/Riposte.txt

Also, this jives correctly with the numerical representations of those evasions in code. (block is -1, parry -2, riposte -3, dodge -4)

[aubie]

Logically, why would you want to block -> parry -> riposte -> dodge an attack that would MISS you in the first place? Of course I realize very little about Sony/Verant/EQ relates to logic, but still - think about it (and I realize thinking about it is NOT classic, so I just defeated my post for you). Carry on.