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  #421  
Old 08-02-2022, 06:11 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is online now
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Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I have a lvl 60 mage on green that I basically don't play. They are kinda trash at lvl60, but pretty fun to get there. Very strong,but boring class at raids. Running rip sticks or mod rods is about the depth of them once coths are done.
I don't think their hugely underpowered, more one dimensional. Mages don't have alot of options
Precicely.

For the other posters, you keep shifting out of "most underpowered overall", to things like " most underpowered soloing", "most underpowered in classic", etc.

This is why we are talking past each other.

Most underpowerd class (on P99) must take into account the full timeline because your character will be in all expansions. It must take into account how the class plays before level 60, and at level 60. It must take into account the average server's raid time, which is casual. It must take into account the role of the class. It must take into account how useful their toolkit is.

Mage is the class I see the least often at level 60 outside of raids. The reason for this is simple: their decent solo capabilities do not outweigh how poorly they scale as they level, and how their toolkit just doesn't mesh too well with the timeline and the player bases knowledge.

If this wasn't true we would see more Mages.
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  #422  
Old 08-02-2022, 07:47 PM
Zuranthium Zuranthium is offline
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The things you write are so frustrating. You continually bounce between arguing only Velious matters and "all eras matter", and your overall assessment still ignores the superior ways to progress in the game (aka what is most powerful), and the impact of what a Mage brings.

Mage is played less in this era outside of raids because Enchanter/Necro are more powerful overall and other casters have either big heals or teleports to fill heavily requested game functions. Mage in Velious era is also psychologically underwhelming because the only thing they gain compared to Kunark is the ability to make their pet unfearable and teleport it to their location, rather than the more tangible upgrades other classes get. But regardless they are still strong and can contribute more to a typical group than a Wizard or a melee player who doesn't have great gear. And can definitely solo better overall than those people.

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Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I donít think I can pick out a most underpowered class. The ones which seem a bit bum often have a huge trump card to bring them back in the running.
Paladin being deleted from the game would basically change nothing. Their +200 HP buff in Velious gives them *something* desirable, but it's not necessary, and if we are talking about someone only having 1 character to play, rather than just logging on the Pally to buff before getting on a better character, then I'd rather have another Cleric anyway (or another Rogue for DPS, or another Bard for manaboost, or another Warrior for tanking).
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  #423  
Old 08-02-2022, 08:14 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is online now
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Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The things you write are so frustrating. You continually bounce between arguing only Velious matters and "all eras matter", and your overall assessment still ignores the superior ways to progress in the game (aka what is most powerful), and the impact of what a Mage brings.
Since we are looking at the overall usefulness of the class, you cannot simply look at a single era. Otherwise the question becomes "most underpowered in Classic", "most underpowered in Kunark", etc. So you look at the whole timeline, which includes understanding how your character will end up (i.e. in Velious on P99).

I am not ignoring the superior ways to progress in the game. The problem is progressing a Mage is pointless because they end up sucking at 60, except for being a CoTH bot. This is the irony of a Mage. They have good progression and nothing to show for it in the end. The question isn't "which class can progress to 60 fastest".

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Mage is played less in this era outside of raids because Enchanter/Necro are more powerful overall and other casters have either big heals or teleports to fill heavily requested game functions. Mage in Velious era is also psychologically underwhelming because the only thing they gain compared to Kunark is the ability to make their pet unfearable and teleport it to their location, rather than the more tangible upgrades other classes get.
Now you are getting it.

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Paladin being deleted from the game would basically change nothing. Their +200 HP buff in Velious gives them *something* desirable, but it's not necessary, and if we are talking about someone only having 1 character to play, rather than just logging on the Pally to buff before getting on a better character, then I'd rather have another Cleric anyway (or another Rogue for DPS, or another Bard for manaboost, or another Warrior for tanking).
We aren't talking about deleting classes, so this point is irrelevant. In a discussion about deleting classes, deleting a Mage wouldn't really change anything either. It would just slow down the raiding meta a bit. You don't need CoTH to do any raid content.
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  #424  
Old 08-02-2022, 09:35 PM
Zuranthium Zuranthium is offline
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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I am not ignoring the superior ways to progress in the game. The problem is progressing a Mage is pointless because they end up sucking at 60, except for being a CoTH bot.
This isn't true at all. Mages contribute plenty at 60 and can farm well, thus gaining the money to gear out other characters. It's faster to start out as a Mage on a server and get gear for a melee character that way, than it is to start as a naked melee and try to level with trash gear and try to do camps like that. That is, assuming people don't powerlevel you for free and give you free gear.

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
We aren't talking about deleting classes, so this point is irrelevant. In a discussion about deleting classes, deleting a Mage wouldn't really change anything either. It would just slow down the raiding meta a bit. You don't need CoTH to do any raid content.
OMFG, your comprehension level is so low.

When looking at what each class contributes to the game, there are clearly varying degrees of "necessities". And as already talked about, power is direct measurement of how quickly and efficiently you can do things in this game. No class is "needed" if you simply have enough players and spend enough time, but different abilities create different amounts of benefit.

Mage contributes more to raids (and the majority of groups) than a Paladin. CoTH is not the only thing they do, a Mage being present is also an increase to the amount of mana your casters have, thanks to mod rods. Mages can also do big DPS when clearing to the "boss" on a raid and are capable of contributing DPS to the end fight as well, even though it's lesser at that point since their nukes will hardly land.

Shadowknight is arguably the least "helpful" class for raids and overall if they were the deleted class in theory, then also nothing in the game would really change. But they have strengths outside of raids that are significantly better to me than what a Paladin can do, on average.
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  #425  
Old 08-02-2022, 10:18 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is online now
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Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
This isn't true at all. Mages contribute plenty at 60 and can farm well, thus gaining the money to gear out other characters. It's faster to start out as a Mage on a server and get gear for a melee character that way, than it is to start as a naked melee and try to level with trash gear and try to do camps like that. That is, assuming people don't powerlevel you for free and give you free gear.



OMFG, your comprehension level is so low.

When looking at what each class contributes to the game, there are clearly varying degrees of "necessities". And as already talked about, power is direct measurement of how quickly and efficiently you can do things in this game. No class is "needed" if you simply have enough players and spend enough time, but different abilities create different amounts of benefit.

Mage contributes more to raids (and the majority of groups) than a Paladin. CoTH is not the only thing they do, a Mage being present is also an increase to the amount of mana your casters have, thanks to mod rods. Mages can also do big DPS when clearing to the "boss" on a raid and are capable of contributing DPS to the end fight as well, even though it's lesser at that point since their nukes will hardly land.

Shadowknight is arguably the least "helpful" class for raids and overall if they were the deleted class in theory, then also nothing in the game would really change. But they have strengths outside of raids that are significantly better to me than what a Paladin can do, on average.
Yes, Mages lose efficacy as they level due to lack of CC and Utility. Why do you think Shamans and Enchanters are such good solo artists? They have CC, Utility, and DPS all rolled into one. This is how you excel later in the game. Mages can't increase their Pet's DPS with gear, so their advantage wanes as they get higher level.

No, you just keep switching out of the topic "most underpowered overall". Last time I checked, we weren't on the topic "most underpowered raid class". This is why this conversation isn't going anywhere. You can't stay on topic because the only way you can have a mage not be "most underpowered" is when you switch to a different topic. Of course Mages are not the most underpowered in a raid, as I have said repeatedly.

Twitch is better than Mod Rods, so mages could be deleted and no one would really care, it would just slow down raiding a bit due to no more CoTH. Having both is nice, but Twitch would be better if you had to pick one.

If a raid had to pick one class to get rid of, Rogue or Mage, they would pick Mage every time. You don't need CoTH or mod rods to kill AoW, but you do need DPS, and Mages don't use their pets in raids.
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Do you have questions about Shaman races? Read my guide: https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwow...man_Race_Guide
Want to see Shaman videos? Check out my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFU...zEFJVBIH3-jUog
Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 08-02-2022 at 10:25 PM..
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  #426  
Old 08-02-2022, 11:54 PM
Zuranthium Zuranthium is offline
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Twitch is not better than Mod Rods. The rods are something you can stockpile, twitch is only active once the fight starts. The mod rod spell itself is also FAR more mana efficient than Necro twitch. Necro twitching on a raid is worse than having another Cleric instead. It doesn't add any optimized power level to raiding, whereas a Mage does.

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Mages don't use their pets in raids.
They should, and smart teams do. It's DPS.

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
you just keep switching out of the topic "most underpowered overall".
I don't LOL, you are so confused. You simply fail to understand, over and over, how wrong you are. Despite everyone spelling it out in 100 different ways. There is no metric in which Mage is the most underpowered class overall on a PvE server.
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  #427  
Old 08-03-2022, 12:23 AM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is online now
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Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Twitch is not better than Mod Rods. The rods are something you can stockpile, twitch is only active once the fight starts. The mod rod spell itself is also FAR more mana efficient than Necro twitch. Necro twitching on a raid is worse than having another Cleric instead. It doesn't add any optimized power level to raiding, whereas a Mage does.



They should, and smart teams do. It's DPS.



I don't LOL, you are so confused. You simply fail to understand, over and over, how wrong you are. Despite everyone spelling it out in 100 different ways. There is no metric in which Mage is the most underpowered class overall on a PvE server.
Wrong. Rods are harder to use and hard to stockpile due to them being lore. Tiwtch is superior. Try getting 50 raiders to pick up and drop rods every 6 mins.

They don't use pets because of things like AI issues.

You do. You just don't understand the question, which is why you keep changing topics.
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Do you have questions about Shaman races? Read my guide: https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwow...man_Race_Guide
Want to see Shaman videos? Check out my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFU...zEFJVBIH3-jUog
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  #428  
Old 08-03-2022, 12:30 AM
Zeboim Zeboim is offline
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Dunno about that one chief. I remember our main grading system of the quality of a Mage back on live was the complexity of the patterns he could draw with rods in the shortest time period.
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  #429  
Old 08-03-2022, 09:34 AM
Toxigen Toxigen is offline
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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Wrong. Rods are harder to use and hard to stockpile due to them being lore. Tiwtch is superior. Try getting 50 raiders to pick up and drop rods every 6 mins.

They don't use pets because of things like AI issues.

You do. You just don't understand the question, which is why you keep changing topics.
What? You've never cycled rods before?

Your lack of raid experience is shining through yet again.
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  #430  
Old 08-03-2022, 09:50 AM
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bUTt guOis

dPS m3TERz r ToXoiC!
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