most underpowered class in game?

[eqravenprince]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Saying a Rogue sucks because they can't solo is silly

Rogue is a dependent. Sure it can be fun to be a dependent, no real responsibilities, but it comes at the price of no freedom. I don't think it's silly, just depends on how much you value freedom.

[Zeboim]

Rogue is the best DoT a healer can cast.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unless you really like killing in Droga, being efficient at it is not a huge plus. There are plenty of other ways to make PP, and every class can solo in Droga at 60 if they want to self-farm skins/salts and whatnot.

I am bringing in other classes because the discussion is "most underpowered class overall", so that includes all classes.

The problem here is you are basically saying in poorly formed duo/trio groups Mages can do well. I am not sure why that is a huge plus, since poorly formed groups aren't going to do great anyway, whether you have a Mage or not. Plenty of other classes can do just fine in suboptimal groups too, so it doesn't make a Mage special.

To your point about Mage pets being able to tank, Rogues could tank as well if you had a group with a slower, since we are talking about weird group comps. They have much better defense skills than a Shaman, who can face tank just fine with slow. They also have two defensive discs, Counterattack Discipline and Nimble Discipline.

Efficiency is a huge plus. We all have limited time, why would we waste it? lol. 99.9% of people take the most efficient path in this game. So yes, being able to farm droga efficiently is a big deal. Just because a wizard can kill a few mobs then go oom, it will still be a miserable experience and you'll prob quit after 10-15 min.

You're bringing in other more superior classes to make mages look weaker to support your claims. Nobody is saying mages are the most powerful class.

I didn't say anything about mages specifically doing well in poorly formed duos, you are making things up again [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Any composition a rogue shines in, so will a mage. But due to mage versatility, they can form more powerful duos/trios with different classes. The same cannot be said about a rogue.

Rogues can tank with a slower, but why would you want them to? They will lose a lot of dps/power not being able to consistently backstab, whereas a mage can just keep a beastly earth pet going with DS the whole time & resummon as needed, while the slower can focus on slows & dps and not have to worry about keeping the rogue alive. Rogue discs are nice, but 9 seconds for an hour Reuse time and 12 seconds for a 30 min Reuse time are not a reliable source of power/damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by eqravenprince [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rogue is a dependent. Sure it can be fun to be a dependent, no real responsibilities, but it comes at the price of no freedom. I don't think it's silly, just depends on how much you value freedom.

I agree, but if you value soloing freedom other classes are just as good or better[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Again, that's the issue, is Mages aren't special in this regard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Efficiency is a huge plus. We all have limited time, why would we waste it? lol. 99.9% of people take the most efficient path in this game. So yes, being able to farm droga efficiently is a big deal. Just because a wizard can kill a few mobs then go oom, it will still be a miserable experience and you'll prob quit after 10-15 min.

You're bringing in other more superior classes to make mages look weaker to support your claims. Nobody is saying mages are the most powerful class.

I didn't say anything about mages specifically doing well in poorly formed duos, you are making things up again [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] But due to their versatility, they can form more powerful duos/trios with different classes. The same cannot be said about a rogue.

Rogues can tank with a slower, but why would you want them to? They will lose a lot of dps/power not being able to consistently backstab, whereas a mage can just keep a beastly earth pet going with DS the whole time & resummon as needed, while the slower can focus on slows & dps and not have to worry about keeping the rogue alive. Rogue discs are nice, but 9 seconds for an hour Reuse time and 12 seconds for a 30 min Reuse time are not a reliable source of power/damage.

With regards to Rogues tanking, that's my point. Just because they can, doesn't mean you want them to, or they are ideal. A Mage pet can tank, but if it's behind/to the side of the mob it will DPS more than tanking it. And you get backstab if you have a water pet. A Mage is a DPS class at the end of the day, so you want them to DPS, not tank. Most groups don't need to have Mage Pets as the main tank, similar to how most groups don't need Rogues as the main tank.

Efficiency is important, but again you are assuming all players want to maximize efficiency in Droga. Having more options is also efficient, as money camps are not always open when you are on.

You were talking about suboptimal duos. Any duo with a Mage is suboptimal, due to how much utility you lose by bringing a pure DPS class to a duo. I am not saying you can't succeed with a Mage duo. You can succeed with any duo, including two rogues. Give them embalming daggers for infinite bandages and swap who tanks. But that doesn't mean it is an optimal duo, if efficiency is a huge concern for you.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With regards to Rogues tanking, that's my point. Just because they can, doesn't mean you want them to, or they are ideal. A Mage pet can tank, but if it's behind/to the side of the mob it will DPS more than tanking it. And you get backstab if you have a water pet. A Mage is a DPS class at the end of the day, so you want them to DPS, not tank. Most groups don't need to have Mage Pets as the main tank, similar to how most groups don't need Rogues as the main tank.

Efficiency is important, but again you are assuming all players want to maximize efficiency in Droga. Having more options is also efficient, as money camps are not always open when you are on.

You were talking about suboptimal duos. Any duo with a Mage is suboptimal, due to how much utility you lose by bringing a pure DPS class to a duo. I am not saying you can't succeed with a Mage duo. You can succeed with any duo, including two rogues. Give them embalming daggers for infinite bandages and swap who tanks. But that doesn't mean it is an optimal duo, if efficiency is a huge concern for you.

Your first paragraph really only applies to optimized full groups. I already considered mages/rogues pretty much a wash there as at that point they both should be focusing on dps. But there are plenty of other areas of the game, as I already mentioned soloing/duoing/trioing, which mages are simply better at that overall than rogues are. That's really not debatable, you're just choosing to weigh those areas less, which gets away from the point of "overall" power.

Having more options also doesn't mean efficiency, depending on where you're set up and how much time it took to do that, if you have to leave and go somewhere else, you're probably better off just switching chars and finding efficiency elsewhere, and many people can and will do.

Any mage with a duo is not suboptimal, the other class can handle the efficiency if the combination is right. Mage/enchanter for example. They can kill for hours with pretty much no breaks, whereas a rogue will probably be dead in a few minutes trying to bandage up with horrendous embalmer knives, lol. And two rogues is a really really bad comparison, as 2 mages is a far more powerful duo, so you're not making any sense there.

Mage really isn't just a pure dps class when you factor in how much utility you get with powerful pets and the ability to resummon one at will. Rogues are a one trick pony, they're down there with wizards/rangers at the bottom of the totem pole.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your first paragraph really only applies to optimized full groups. I already considered mages/rogues pretty much a wash there as at that point they both should be focusing on dps. But there are plenty of other areas of the game, as I already mentioned soloing/duoing/trioing, which mages are simply better at that overall than rogues are. That's really not debatable, you're just choosing to weigh those areas less, which gets away from the point of "overall" power.

Having more options also doesn't mean efficiency, depending on where you're set up and how much time it took to do that, if you have to leave and go somewhere else, you're probably better off just switching chars and finding efficiency elsewhere, and many people can and will do.

Any mage with a duo is not suboptimal, the other class can handle the efficiency if the combination is right. Mage/enchanter for example. They can kill for hours with pretty much no breaks, whereas a rogue will probably be dead in a few minutes trying to bandage up with horrendous embalmer knives, lol. And two rogues is a really really bad comparison, as 2 mages is a far more powerful duo, so you're not making any sense there.

Mage really isn't just a pure dps class when you factor in how much utility you get with powerful pets and the ability to resummon one at will. Rogues are a one trick pony, they're down there with wizards/rangers at the bottom of the totem pole.

Mage pets only have DPS, with occasional tanking. Any class can get root proc on a weapon, so that doesn't make Earth Pets special. Mages are a two trick pony: DPS and CoTH. But since we aren't valuing raiding highly, they are mostly a one trick pony.

Yes, more options can mean more efficiency.

Yes, Mage duos are suboptimal. In a Mage/Enchanter duo, the Enchanter is doing the vast majority of the work. It is mostly the Enchanter who is killing for hours. There wouldn't be much difference in an Enchanter/Rogue duo. The problem with a 2 Mage duo is you are leveling mages, which most people don't want to do[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Just because a group of 6 Mages can kill quickly doesn't mean that many people want to be leveling Mages due to how little they do endgame. People don't run XP groups so they can figure out how to maximize DPS in an XP group. They run XP groups to gain XP on the class they want to play.

Rogues with Embalming Knife could duo OK. Just having a duo partner gives you a good spike in kill power. I never said a Rogue/Rogue duo would be better than Mage/Mage. I simply said any duo can succeed, which is true because just having a partner vastly increases what you can do vs. solo, especially on low utility classes like Rogue/Mage.

[Danth]

Well, you brought up bad duos as soon as you mentioned magician and duo in the same sentence. Debating rogue vs. magician in a duo setting is very much a P99 cripple fight. They both suck at it. Magician probably sucks a little less unless you want to get into a Kunark dungeon. Still...mage/enchanter? Friends aside, in what world is that enchanter going to want a magician over a cleric, paladin, necromancer, druid, or even shaman? Sure a rogue's worse--an outright liability--but still, it's a P99 cripple fight.

In spite of the above I also rank magician as a little higher than rogue for overall power. They both are useful in raids, they get groups more or less equally, they both suck for duo stuff, but the magician has moderate solo capability while the rogue has almost none. The fact that the rogue's helplessness when solo is so well-known nobody tries to do it does not make that limitation disappear from my overall assessment of the character any more than hybrids' notorious weakness in raids should be ignored in overall rankings. Such limitations can be ignored at an individual level--a rogue being bad for solo wouldn't matter for an individual player who only wants to group--but not in an overall sense.

Danth

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mage pets only have DPS, with occasional tanking. Any class can get root proc on a weapon, so that doesn't make Earth Pets special. Mages are a two trick pony: DPS and CoTH. But since we aren't valuing raiding highly, they are mostly a one trick pony.

Yes, more options can mean more efficiency.

Yes, Mage duos are suboptimal. In a Mage/Enchanter duo, the Enchanter is doing the vast majority of the work. It is mostly the Enchanter who is killing for hours. There wouldn't be much difference in an Enchanter/Rogue duo. The problem with a 2 Mage duo is you are leveling mages, which most people don't want to do[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Just because a group of 6 Mages can kill quickly doesn't mean that many people want to be leveling Mages due to how little they do endgame. People don't run XP groups so they can figure out how to maximize DPS in an XP group. They run XP groups to gain XP on the class they want to play.

Rogues with Embalming Knife could duo OK. Just having a duo partner gives you a good spike in kill power. I never said a Rogue/Rogue duo would be better than Mage/Mage. I simply said any duo can succeed, which is true because just having a partner vastly increases what you can do vs. solo, especially on low utility classes like Rogue/Mage.

LOL @ your second paragraph

You're lieing to yourself at this point, just admit defeat. I'm just a much better debater than you, you're convincing nobody but yourself [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

An enchanter/rogue duo isn't even remotely close to what an enchanter/mage can do. Not even close, the rogue will just die so fast without heals. And you have to rely on procs to snare to maybe try to pull off some fear kiting shenanigans'. The mage will be giving the enchanter malo which they will greatly appreciate, not to mention a mage will be lettin nukes fly left & right and resummonin pets with endless c2 mana.

You're resorting to end game discussions again. Ew. We already established raiding is only a portion of the game, and most people are casual and not playing endgame.

Embalmers knife duo is laughable, lol, both rogues will be dead by the time you kill 1-2 KC mobs.

Sorry, rogues just aren't that great.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, you brought up bad duos as soon as you mentioned magician and duo in the same sentence. Debating rogue vs. magician in a duo setting is very much a P99 cripple fight. They both suck at it. Magician probably sucks a little less unless you want to get into a Kunark dungeon. Still...mage/enchanter? Friends aside, in what world is that enchanter going to want a magician over a cleric, paladin, necromancer, druid, or even shaman? Sure a rogue's worse--an outright liability--but still, it's a P99 cripple fight.

In spite of the above I also rank magician as a little higher than rogue for overall power. They both are useful in raids, they get groups more or less equally, they both suck for duo stuff, but the magician has moderate solo capability while the rogue has almost none. The fact that the rogue's helplessness when solo is so well-known nobody tries to do it does not make that limitation disappear from my overall assessment of the character any more than hybrids' notorious weakness in raids should be ignored in overall rankings. Such limitations can be ignored at an individual level--a rogue being bad for solo wouldn't matter for an individual player who only wants to group--but not in an overall sense.

Danth

Lol I agree with most of this. The only thing I disagree with is trying to rate Rogues based on their solo ability, as they are one of the few classes in the game that are really meant to be group dependent. Everybody who makes a Rogue knows they can't solo, and yet more Rogues tend to be played than Mages. That is what typically makes me rate Rogues higher than Mages. Unless everybody is playing the game wrong, Rogues still seem preferable over Mages, even with their lower solo capabilities.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sorry, rogues just aren't that great.

I am not arguing that Rogues are amazing. They are simply better than Mages when looking at "most underpowered class".

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

An enchanter/rogue duo isn't even remotely close to what an enchanter/mage can do. Not even close, the rogue will just die so fast without heals. And you have to rely on procs to snare to maybe try to pull off some fear kiting shenanigans'. The mage will be giving the enchanter malo which they will greatly appreciate, not to mention a mage will be lettin nukes fly left & right and resummonin pets with endless c2 mana.

You are vastly overestimating what a Mage is doing here, I am sorry. The Enchanter is doing the work, the Mage is just helping with DPS.