Timesinks != difficult

[Arclanz]

Rather than hijack the wow thread, I wanted to expound.

Timesinks and inconveniences do indeed equal difficulty. What skill is required to overcome this difficulty? Perseverance. The same skill, it so happens, that, above all other skills, decides who becomes the CEO, the Doctor, the Lawyer, the Astronaut. A skill that the youth today are not learning. Is it coincidence that the number of people on welfare has also skyrocketed in recent times?

[lawll]

Originally Posted by Arclanz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rather than hijack the wow thread, I wanted to expound.

Timesinks and inconveniences do indeed equal difficulty. What skill is required to overcome this difficulty? Perseverance. The same skill, it so happens, that, above all other skills, decides who becomes the CEO, the Doctor, the Lawyer, the Astronaut. A skill that the youth today is not learning. Is it coincidence that the number of people on welfare has also skyrocketed in recent times?

Just because I need to run across the world to make it to the next city to turn in a quest item doesn't make it hard at all. Or just because I need to get my 50 raid members keyed for a new raid zone doesn't make it hard. It's just a pointless time sink to hold of progression.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by lawll [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because I need to run across the world to make it to the next city to turn in a quest item doesn't make it hard at all. Or just because I need to get my 50 raid members keyed for a new raid zone doesn't make it hard. It's just a pointless time sink to hold of progression.

Tell the next marathon runner you meet that all the miles he/she ran in training were just a pointless time sink designed to hold off progression, then come back on here and let me know what he/she says about that.

[lawll]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tell the next marathon runner you meet that all the miles he/she ran in training were just a pointless time sink designed to hold off progression, then come back on here and let me know what he/she says about that.

Lol progress to what a gold metal? Then that's just saying why fight bosses at all just give me the loot.

[subatis]

i don't think its the time sinks that make it difficult, directly. there's a couple pieces, here are examples...

1) death - you lose XP, and have to get your corpse. its not the time sink inherently that makes it hard, its the THREAT of dying (and the ease at which you can die) that makes EQ hard.

2) travel - No, going from one place to another isn't hard at level 50, but because of the threat of dying and having do it all over again, travel can be quite hard at low levels...and if you are so against the time sink, then get a port, its not difficult to do and requires that you (GASP!) talk to other people.

like others said in the wow thread, p1999 is a very niche hobby, and to me the allure is that the above 2 things (and others) make EQ very immersive. Being scared of death makes death feel more real than it does in wow or modern EQ, and therefore makes the whole experience more interesting/fun. Likewise, the long travel times at low levels make the world feel big, and give noobs a reason to stay in certain spots instead of trucking it to where everyone else is (like paludal caverns when luclin came out).

[Arclanz]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tell the next marathon runner you meet that all the miles he/she ran in training were just a pointless time sink designed to hold off progression, then come back on here and let me know what he/she says about that.

This forum needs a Like button.

[Kualtek]

I believe the thing to understand here is that what everyone defines as an 'appropriate' timesink will vary from person to person, within a range. Too convenient and it won't feel like an accomplishment, too time consuming and it will feel like the game is artificially increasing the time required to complete something. All MMO developers are going to consider this when creating their games. It's impossible for them to create content as fast as their players will be able to consume it if they don't consider actual time to completion.

Your perspective on how timesink affects you is directly related to how much time you have to devote to the game. Blizzard looked at EQ1 and saw it's success, but knew that if they curtailed some of the timesink, their playerbase would increase dramatically. It's not the only reason they are successful, but it helps retain players in the long run who don't have a lot of time to play.

If Blizzard failed at a part of the timesink, it's that their timesink is completely game mechanics based, instead of part of the world. In EQ, rare mobs are not always available, which is a realistic assumption to consider. It also takes time and is dangerous to travel to some areas. In WoW, it's much easier to find every corner of the world that is interesting and complete the content, so they have developed systems like the 'badges' that you collect for doing instanced dungeons. This makes the game easier to play in small chunks, but loses a great deal of the immersion into the game.

[lawll]

Originally Posted by Kualtek [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I believe the thing to understand here is that what everyone defines as an 'appropriate' timesink will vary from person to person, within a range. Too convenient and it won't feel like an accomplishment, too time consuming and it will feel like the game is artificially increasing the time required to complete something. All MMO developers are going to consider this when creating their games. It's impossible for them to create content as fast as their players will be able to consume it if they don't consider actual time to completion.

Your perspective on how timesink affects you is directly related to how much time you have to devote to the game. Blizzard looked at EQ1 and saw it's success, but knew that if they curtailed some of the timesink, their playerbase would increase dramatically. It's not the only reason they are successful, but it helps retain players in the long run who don't have a lot of time to play.

If Blizzard failed at a part of the timesink, it's that their timesink is completely game mechanics based, instead of part of the world. In EQ, rare mobs are not always available, which is a realistic assumption to consider. It also takes time and is dangerous to travel to some areas. In WoW, it's much easier to find every corner of the world that is interesting and complete the content, so they have developed systems like the 'badges' that you collect for doing instanced dungeons. This makes the game easier to play in small chunks, but loses a great deal of the immersion into the game.

Who really wants to put 6-8 hours a day into a mmo to even feel like you did anything. That's why interest in EQ game model died out and everyone is copying what blizzard is doing.

[Houdiny]

This is a great debate. I often wondered what other people thought about "grinding" or what they consider difficult. In Vanguard there was a TON of grinding. And I mean a metric (you know what) ton. It separated the weak from the bold for sure.

In most MMO's you either have what it takes to do something or you don't. Whether it be level wise of gear wise. No amount of skill or hand eye coordination is going to let you kill Ambassador Dvinn at level 1. You need levels, gear, and skillups. All of which are required by grinding.

So in my opinion, yes grinding(timesinks) do indeed help determine a degree of difficulty. I'm not saying that one Enchanter can't be better than another at charming a mob and working over another mob better, or a necro being able to dungeon crawl faster or kill said mob more efficiently.

But a characters potential is his potential. He can't do more than the most he can do. It all depends on the player getting the most out of it.

[lawll]

Originally Posted by Houdiny [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a great debate. I often wondered what other people thought about "grinding" or what they consider difficult. In Vanguard there was a TON of grinding. And I mean a metric (you know what) ton. It separated the weak from the bold for sure.

In most MMO's you either have what it takes to do something or you don't. Whether it be level wise of gear wise. No amount of skill or hand eye coordination is going to let you kill Ambassador Dvinn at level 1. You need levels, gear, and skillups. All of which are required by grinding.

So in my opinion, yes grinding(timesinks) do indeed help determine a degree of difficulty. I'm not saying that one Enchanter can't be better than another at charming a mob and working over another mob better, or a necro being able to dungeon crawl faster or kill said mob more efficiently.

But a characters potential is his potential. He can't do more than the most he can do. It all depends on the player getting the most out of it.

Grinding isn't so bad when you find good ways to hide it but not straight in your face grind like EQ was.